Abortion Good or Bad?

[Dalriada]

QUOTE
P/s: but sometime we doesn't have any pity to kill smaller size's life (eg: rodents, insects, etc.)

is the life-value is different between organisms?

We don't have much more pity for larger size's lifes, sometimes to eat (killing cattle) or sometimes just for pleasure (hunting).
So ending a life is definitely not the problem here.


QUOTE
The bad could be they could accidentally puncture the uterus and make it so the woman could not have a baby again, they could accidentally leave something in the uterus"Image a surgical siccor+penis=uh oh" and that could also possibly kill the mother.

That's exactly why abortion should be legal. So that it's made by professional physicians, with clean and sterilized tools, in a safe environment.
By making abortion illegal, you don't stop abortion. You make it far more dangerous.

 

[dave69812]

I see more people and the media going ballistic and preaching morality about monstrous dogs being bred for the main purpose of fighting even equating them to the family golden retriever but would be mum and remain on the sidelines when video of late term abortions are aired.

Human life and children's rights are devalued unless its to further political agenda then you hear the phrase "Its for the children."

------------------------


I replied with yes in some cases that being Rape or endangered life of mother and you can't tell me the 30 million plus abortions in this countries history since the 70's were mostly rape or the mothers life being in danger.

Planned parenthood doesnt let police know if the underage kids had abortions because the rape might involve family members but thats silly because it only mean the kids will face more rapes.

And its big business when you mutiply cost times at least 1 million per year.

Its was mostly used as a form of birth control by people who were irresponsible, adultery, or because a girl thought it was love the guy thought it was a fling.


If you look at the demographics of those who are pro abortion (pro choice generally means for abortion) and they are breeding their ilk out of existence as you can see all over Europe you can see why one political party and the business community are for amnesty.


Moderator's Note: Don't double post - use the edit button if you have more to say. Posts merged.

 

[Dalriada]

QUOTE (dave69812 @ Sep 06 2007, 01:16 PM) If you look at the demographics of those who are pro abortion (pro choice generally means for abortion) and they are breeding their ilk out of existence as you can see all over Europe you can see why one political party and the business community are for amnesty.
Pro-abortion?
Do you know people you are in favor of aborting every women?
Or are you just trying to demonize those who don't think like you?

 

[8GaugeBrett]

QUOTE (Dalriada @ Sep 06 2007, 03:34 PM)
Pro-abortion?
Do you know people you are in favor of aborting every women?
Or are you just trying to demonize those who don't think like you?

Please rewrite that sentence it makes absolutely no sense.


Also, I think that this discussion topic is poorly worded. I've never met anyone who thought that abortion was a "good" thing. In some situations abortion might be medically necessary for the survival of the mother, but I am sure that those who have had an abortion would much rather prefer having had avoided the pregnancy, or the complications that lead to the decision to abort the fetus, in the first place.

Personally I think that abortion as a medical procedure is a necessity and it should NOT be outlawed. However I find that the issue of abortion is far too often trivialized and it has become more or less a safety net for those who decided to act irresponsibly. Personal responsibility seems like it has all but evaporated from our society today and it is an extremely sad future that I see lying ahead of us because of that... but that is really a complex issue in and of itself.

Anyhow, I really have no intention of writing a book here so good luck with the discussion and maybe try not thinking of abortion in such black and white terms e.g. "Good" or "Bad"

 

[dave69812]

QUOTE (8GaugeBrett @ Sep 06 2007, 04:00 PM)QUOTE (Dalriada @ Sep 06 2007, 03:34 PM)
Pro-abortion?
Do you know people you are in favor of aborting every women?
Or are you just trying to demonize those who don't think like you?

Please rewrite that sentence it makes absolutely no sense.

I state facts, one of the problems is that some people go on emotion entirely in their discussions.

Pro Choice is generally code for pro abortion while pro life is pro life. You don't see pro choice types happy when a girls changes her mind on having an abortion and the church foots the bill and promises to help the saved child find adoptive parents.

And they are plenty of couples who want to adopt to the point they'll go to the Eastern Europe, Asia and parts of Africa and India to get a child

Its a fact that in the alleged highly educated demographic in the US and Europe that birth rates are low and a part contributing to that is aborting babies that could in the future contribute to that nation.

The younger demographic is about having fun and in alot of instances having a nuclear family isn't popular.

This action will hurt the business community and certain political parties but the current quick fix is mass immigration which helps the business community look for hard working people who will accept low wages and certain political parties who will increase their voting base with the promise of government entitlements.

And the immigrant whether they are of the Islamic faith, African Origin, Eastern bloc or Latin America have one thing in common they reproduce like rabbits. and if they assimilate into that nation it would help offset the projected low population rates in the US and parts of Europe by the major demographic.

 

[Dalriada]

QUOTE
Please rewrite that sentence it makes absolutely no sense.

Apology, it should have been read "Do you know people who are in favor of aborting every women?"
I mean I've never encountered someone who thought abortion was a fun thing. Just people who thought that allowing abortion was "less bad" than banning it.


QUOTE
Pro Choice is generally code for pro abortion while pro life is pro life. You don't see pro choice types happy when a girls changes her mind on having an abortion and the church foots the bill and promises to help the saved child find adoptive parents.

I see one of them each time I look in a mirror (and I must say I'm quite lucky to see such a nice face every morning).


QUOTE
Its a fact that in the alleged highly educated demographic in the US and Europe that birth rates are low and a part contributing to that is aborting babies that could in the future contribute to that nation.


Blame women's work and education (or even contraception) rather than abortion, it plays probably a greatest part in the situation.
By the way, look at what the demographic transition model is.


QUOTE
And the immigrant whether they are of the Islamic faith, African Origin, Eastern bloc or Latin America have one thing in common they reproduce like rabbits. and if they assimilate into that nation it would help offset the projected low population rates in the US and parts of Europe by the major demographic.


So the problem is that colored-faces will be more numerous than good-looking caucasians?
Isn't it just, you know, racist?

 

[Bold]

QUOTE (dave69812 @ Sep 06 2007, 03:16 PM)Planned parenthood doesnt let police know if the underage kids had abortions because the rape might involve family members but thats silly because it only mean the kids will face more rapes. What is planned parenthood???? If you mean planning when you get your kids, what is the relation with rape and police? Every couple plans, to a certain degree, when they are ready to have children. But I fail to see what the police and rape has to do in the picture?


QUOTE (dave69812 @ Sep 06 2007, 03:16 PM)If you look at the demographics of those who are pro abortion (pro choice generally means for abortion) and they are breeding their ilk out of existence as you can see all over Europe you can see why one political party and the business community are for amnesty. For amnesty? Amnesty of what crime??

But the better question would be, who is "breeding their ilk out of existence" in Europe??


QUOTE (dave69812 @ Sep 06 2007, 06:27 PM)I state facts, one of the problems is that some people go on emotion entirely in their discussions.You say that you state facts. Yet all I see in your posts are comments about "people out there in Europe" and other non precise comments. Europe is not a country, its a HUGE continent. So you would have to be more precise to state a fact about it. Giving some numbers would help as well.

You blame people that are using only their emotions instead of their head to discuss the issue of abortion. On that matter, I totally agree with you. This subjects needs to be discussed rationally using facts and not "I heard that".


QUOTE (Dalriada @ Sep 07 2007, 02:09 AM)QUOTE (dave69812 @ Sep 06 2007, 06:27 PM)]
Its a fact that in the alleged highly educated demographic in the US and Europe that birth rates are low and a part contributing to that is aborting babies that could in the future contribute to that nation.Blame women's work and education (or even contraception) rather than abortion, it plays probably a greatest part in the situation.
By the way, look at what the demographic transition model is.
I agree with Dalriada. Stating that abortion is responsible for low birth rate is totally ignoring a key aspect.

Highly educated people usually don't have that many children for multiple reasons. One of them is that it takes a long time to get highly educated. An engineers won't be out of school before 24 a doctor, before about 27. Having children while still in school, is not exactly a good idea. So they wait. After that, people know that babies require lots of work and care. Do you want to have a baby 2 years after you just finished your studies and put a stop to your career? After spending so many years studying something, most people want to do that thing for more than one year!

Abortion only plays a marginal role in the birth rate of highly educated people. As for lower income people, abortion is not usually something that is so heavily used either. I never heard of anyone who uses abortion as a form of contraception. That is simply a myth. The discomfort of going through an abortion procedure compared to using a condom or taking a contraceptive pills don't even compare!

 

[Nahrallah]

Abortion is an extremely sensitive issue. I have hesitated over contributing to this topic because of this but a friend has recently been having to put up with someone essentially bragging about having unprotected sex and this has made me consider, and research, the consequences.

The first time I remember discussing the issue of abortion was when I was in primary school. This topic was raised in class and it was fairly obvious that, even with limited information, everyone seemed to have an opinion. Many years later, I still believe that I could never go through with an abortion for any reason … even if the pregnancy put my life at risk. The very thought of it horrifies me. That, however, is my personal decision.

I realise that there are many reasons why a woman might be faced with the possibility of having an abortion. Eptopic pregnancies, to give one example, don’t leave many options.

While I know what is right for me, I have not lived the lives of those women who have chosen to have an abortion and I have no right to judge them; however, I would have to say that I personally find it difficult to comprehend how a “mistake” can lead to a pregnancy that requires surgical intervention. Perhaps women should be more aware of Emergency Contraception (the morning after pill). 72 hours (3 days) is a pretty large window and it can still be used up to 120 hours after unprotected sex. Why some people seem to be happy to disregard the consequences of their actions or even play with the idea that it “won’t happen to me” is beyond my comprehension. Sure, unprotected sex is a choice but it’s one that should involve oral contraception or an injection at the very least and blood tests are probably going to come into the equation at some point and earlier is better. I wish that adoption was a more commonly used solution in those situations where an abortion is sought because of a “mistake”.

I am of the opinion that most methods of abortion are barbaric. Is there a sound medical reason why potassium chloride is not used in all cases? Lethal injection has been established to be the most humane method to end life so why are less humane methods employed when it comes to feticide? Is it, for some reason, not medically possible? I don’t know. I can’t seem to find an answer to this question.

There is a lot of debate regarding fetal pain but if there is a method that circumvents this issue then why is it not used more often? Even the possibility that pain could be felt should mean that, at the very least, anaesthesia for the fetus should be standard practise. Broadly speaking, surgical abortions effectively involve piece by piece removal. Even animals must, by most laws, be rendered insensible to pain before being cut up. Although the existence of fetal pain has not yet been definitively proven, even the slightest possibility that pain could be felt when limbs are torn or cut away or a head is crushed should make anaesthesia a requirement.

Should abortion be legal? In my opinion it should. Making it illegal will not stop women from having abortions. Methods to induce abortion have most likely been used since prehistory. The first recorded evidence dates back to about 500 BC (BCE) so making abortion illegal is more likely to put lives at risk rather than discourage people.

Is abortion good or bad? The question is too simplistic. Few things are absolute. It is heartbreakingly sad that anyone has to face this decision. I would hope that it isn’t an option that is ever taken lightly.

 

[turkishproverb]

QUOTE (Bold @ Sep 08 2007, 06:13 AM) Abortion only plays a marginal role in the birth rate of highly educated people. As for lower income people, abortion is not usually something that is so heavily used either. I never heard of anyone who uses abortion as a form of contraception. That is simply a myth. The discomfort of going through an abortion procedure compared to using a condom or taking a contraceptive pills don't even compare!
I just wanted to say on this that, having worked in clinics, and knowing many nursing professionals, Doctors do typically lie about the negative risks and issues of having an abortion, often out of fear of being sued by planned parenthood or another pro-whatever you want to call when you encourage abortion organizations. For example, none of them will mention the virtually 100 percent rate of post abortion depression, and will go to great lengths to suggest that any discomfort will be minimal.

Not saying your entirely wrong, but the fact is, doctors have their share of problems this way.

Furthermore, post-getting pregnant, up until recently a traditional abortion was the only option in the states, as the day after pill only recently got approved. before that, there were a fair number of "suburbs" girls in on a fairly regular basis getting abortions repeatedly, because their parents might find birth control, but that area didn't require parental consent, or because they wouldn't get their bf to use condoms, but he would pay for an abortion.

 

[overfiend1976]

Being a parent of a little baby that I love more than anything in the known universe, I guess I might as well interject my opinion in this matter. Its a choice. Choice is what makes us human. If you steal that choice from us, go have fun being an animal on your own time thanks. Having a child should NEVER be about 'laws' and 'regulations' and 'church doctrines.' Having a child is ENTIRELY about choice. Regulation that choice is a direct violation of freedom. Do I love my girl? You betcha' Did I think about opting for an abortion when my (now ex-wife) was pregnant with her? You betcha' Do I regret those thoughts? No. Absolutely not. At the time that was a choice I had thought about, and considered very seriously. At that point in time, neither of us had the financial resources immediately available for a child. Would I consider abortion again if a similar circumstance arose? Absolutely. Children aren't 'cheap' and sure as HELL AREN'T EASY to raise. If a child would be brought into a situation that is never going to be positive for them, be lack of food, caring, nurturing, etc. or was conceived forcibly, I do NOT think it is fair to THEM to be brought into this world.

Oh yes, I also get another bonus reason for being able to state my opinions so 'vocally.' I not only am a parent, I'm a single father, with full custody and one who managed to waltz into family court with a public defender and win completely versus a family with many millions of dollars and multiple high priced lawyers at their disposal. E.G. the court could tell who the better parent would be

Money doesn't make you a parent. But! Hold still here folks! I'm not saying, 'ABORTIONS FOR ALL!' I'm only saying, 'CHOICES FOR ALL!' You don't want to have an abortion and would never consider it? Good! I'm glad! I wish you all the best with your child. But. Don't force your judgment upon others. That's just not fair. Hey, I'm not forcing YOU to choose to have an abortion, so don't force me to choose NOT to.

 

[Agaidos]

abortion is a horrible excuse for not wanting to take responsibility in some cases and most generally because people give others the right to pop their heads in the doctors office and say "hey, me no want child because me no want it". really, people have the right to make their own decision's and thats tottaly fine but people should also understand the amount of responsibility they have when makeing those decisions.
you live with each decision you make, and decisions should not be called right just because a bunch of people get up on their high horse and yell"free will, my choice"
when that choice is only given to them because others want enough justification by the higher-ups to call it right.i say thats bulls***.abortion, i dont think can be considered right. its just another excuse, for another bunch of people who want free-will to take presidence over the underlineing fact of their misbehaviour to justify horible and inhumane actions.some people fight for abortion because they feel "if it's ok in the public-eye then im not wrong".saying they arent liable for their ridiculously immoral behaviour is what i think abortion should be best known for.sioriouly, their deisregard for responsibility should not be considered right, and free-will should not be justification enough to say that they decide whether it suffers its fate at the hands of the doctor, or at the hands on the world.choice simply isnt enough justification.
pro-life and pro-choice should be recognized for what they are.
pro-life is a standard by which people live, thinking birth is the most natural.
pro-choice is a standard for those who use free-will to justify their choice to prevent birth.
and anyway, for all of you who think no one has the right to make judgements about another person, you should also consider whether or not we can make judgements about if we can deprive the possibility of a child through birth(abortion).
i think if you get pregnant, your responsible for the child.

 

[overfiend1976]

As soon as you're personally pregnant or get someone pregnant (obv. depending upon your gender), and it's unplanned, I'd like to see if you're of the same mindset. Will YOU own up to your responsibilities? I've been down the path a few times, so I am indeed not being hypocritical.

 

[Agaidos]

im pretty sure i would take responsibility.i would never get in bed with someone unless it was for love, atleast i idealy beilive so.
so, if i get in bet, it should be something that i consider before doing so, after i've had sex theirs no real excuse if i get someone pregnant.

 

[overfiend1976]

What if you THINK you can handle it at first, but you both have a chance to sit down and discuss things and realize that you really DON'T have the abilities and don't want to run the risk of having your child raised nowhere to the best of you skills, and you have little to no faith in the adoption system?

 

[Agaidos]

QUOTE (overfiend1976 @ Jan 30 2008, 08:39 PM)What if you THINK you can handle it at first, but you both have a chance to sit down and discuss things and realize that you really DON'T have the abilities and don't want to run the risk of having your child raised nowhere to the best of you skills, and you have little to no faith in the adoption system?

that statement presupposes I/they have no faith in the adoption system. normally, people would try to ensure a good life by all means possible if they could'nt do it in any other way. or am i still thinking the world has some sense?if adoption is an option, they shouldnt just say" o ok abortion"!just because i/they dont like thinking about adoption, but seem to make sense of abortion as a more positive and balanced solution.if a person has no faith in adoption, i doubt their only alternative would be abortion.if they are truely concerned with the welfare of their child, or child to be, even under unbearable conditions they would try to adjust accordingly and provide the best possible life they could or find someone more suitable.there are some choices that people HAVE TO MAKE, but i dont think that they are justified.
and also, theres a timeline of six months. half a year.theres more than enough time to be responsible.
people adjust quickly under severe conditions, and learn how exactly to be responsible.even though there seems to be barely no way out, it doesnt mean im at the end of my rope.
to beilieve that im incapable, doesnt morally justify abortion.

abandoneing hope doesnt mean that there isnt any left.it just means a person is more willing to give up on something and accept an alternative that seems less stressfull and less emotionally exhausting.

 

[overfiend1976]

Abortion I find FAR more stressful and emotionally exhausting than adoption, so I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. And as far as presuming that you/they have no faith in the adoption system, I said 'if', KEY word, 'IF'. I assume nothing, just adding an option.

 

[Agaidos]

i thought that you were trying to point out that abortion is a much better choice, if you have no faith in adoption whatsoever, or atleast abortion would be justified.
hahaha if that wasnt your point, sorry dude.im rash and impulsive and i jump to conslusions x_X

 

[EggBeast]

Wow, I'm actually surprised I hadn't seen any real action on this thread until now.

But taking a huge step back, and taking a bastardly inhuman look at the ethics of it all (hey, that's what I do

), I think the matter boils down to two main issues. It really gets to be a matter of human potential vs. human privacy (that's how the American supreme courts looked at it, anyways

...and just be forewarned, I'm not a religious dude by any means, but I don't intend anything I say here to be offensive. It's fine if you don't agree with me, but make sure you don't bash my opinions using religious convictions, but I'm perfectly fine and understanding of the fact that many won't agree.

If you take the view that abortion is evil because once the fetus is created, you've got a freakin' baby baby goin' on in there, and not giving it the opportunity of being born/growing up, is little more than murder. ...but looking from this same view, we should make menstruation a federal offense! Think of all those potential babies, going to waste! And really, if you take a strictly molecular look at it, egg + sperm = pile of cells.

But don't worry, I'm aware that egg + sperm also = fetus which will eventually = baby, and I know things like that get really sticky. But I'm still of the mind that since early abortions get rid of some...thing that cannot feel pain, cannot think, cannot remember, cannot do anything but leech food from a tube.

...yeah, it may be a cold way of looking at it, but forcing a lovely young lady to persevere through the ordeal of pregnancy... just because the child has potential... doesn't justify anything. You cannot ethically force someone to have a child because they had some of that sweet, sweet sex.

...yeah, I'm a huge fan of personal freedoms, of personal choice.

 

[Agaidos]

eggbeast, i can always look to you for an amazing point of view so long as it barely has anything to do with religion.

and i agree that things like this do tend to be problematic since the issue mainly concerns a personal choice but regardless i dont think that just because someone has a choice that it solely justifys the puspose of their action/actions expecially involveing a person, or the potential of a person to be.
as for menstration, thats a completely different matter.a simple "egg" cell will be nothing more than that unless it is inpregnated, and once it is thats where i get a bit sensitive and uncomfortable with the whole, its ok!abortion is a choice,let it stand by all means.
to sum it all up, the only real conviction i have concerning abortion is that people dont really consider what they are doing or dont care.abortion at times can be quite selfish.
im a firm beiliever in if someone has sex, then they should be responsible if they get pregnant, unplanned or not it was the result.people are aware of what could happen.

 

[EggBeast]

QUOTE (Agaidos @ Jan 30 2008, 09:33 PM) im a firm beiliever in if someone has sex, then they should be responsible if they get pregnant, unplanned or not it was the result.people are aware of what could happen.
I agree that responsibility is very important. If you don't want a child, then you'd better get hardcore with the birth control. But nothing in life is perfect, and things rarely ever go according to plan.

But when you say that every fetus-child MUST be given the coveted (and ofttimes not-so coveted) shot at life, you really can't conclude that that child's life will even be worthwhile. Yes, every human has great potential, but that alone is no argument. Trust me when I say that many lives are filled with pure misery. Especially if the child gets adopted (at least in the States), going from foster home to foster home, I've had a few friends like that, and they were really miserable people, never really having a family of their own. It's just as likely that someone will be born into a completely miserable life as one that is truly happy and worthwhile.

And plus I'm still personally a big fan of personal choice.