Can a democracy make the wrong choice

Can a democracy make the wrong choice

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chiisai_hana

-nipah!
Retired
I'm not even going to read all that, but I want to go back to this point:

QUOTE And you say WW did impact the Middle East, obviously it didn't Muslims don't care about Christians and what they fought over.

Uh, wasn't the nation of Isreal officially made BECAUSE of a world war? So therefore, doens't that have a huge impact on the middle east today?

Sidepoint: I'd also like to point out that just because the western countries have been mainly Christian doesn't mean we all ARE Christian. I think it's a bit of a generalization to say the world wars were fought by Christians, because they were not religious wars.



Getting back to Lebanon, do you think the Isrealis really believed they could 'clean up' in two weeks, or was that just cover? It's now what, day 19 or something? And the official elected-in government in Lebanon right now is NOT Hezbollah, right?
 

99FoxDemon

-chan
Kouhai
QUOTE (alchemist11 @ Jul 29 2006, 08:48 AM)I'm happy in a way the US and GB aren't doing anything in the middle east cause that would only bring more choas...
For your information US government was involve already, but not in battlefield. They involve with this conflict by supporting that Jew army with logistic and morale... and few days ago US was give them guided missile to crushing Lebanese... they also block all the ways to lead peace in Lebanon and Palestine... they sent that woman just to give warning to Lebanese people... that US also use their veto power to defend Israeli action event the child in there will come to a pieces…
 

noob

±ⁿ°°ɓ±
Retired
QUOTE
Getting back to Lebanon, do you think the Isrealis really believed they could 'clean up' in two weeks, or was that just cover? It's now what, day 19 or something?

though it was their initial plan but since they've failed they're, just like any other country would, trying to come up with a better plan. One that can surprass the other one.
 

darkdog

-dredg
Retired
QUOTE QANA, Lebanon - An Israeli airstrike killed at least 56 people, including at least 34 children, in a southern Lebanese village Sunday, the Lebanese Red Cross said. It was the deadliest attack in 19 days of fighting. Lebanese security officials put the toll at 57 dead. Security officials said the toll rose dramatically after 18 people from two families were found in a single room of the building, where dozens of people had been taking refuge from the fighting.
(from yahoo news)

this is just sick. this is terrorism at its worse.
 

noob

±ⁿ°°ɓ±
Retired
Oh wow, that news just gave me a chill. That is horrible! What exactly is UN doing?
 

darkdog

-dredg
Retired
well, they can't do much anyway. the US's veto power plays a major role in what the UN can do, and we all know who the US supports..

so far, all that is being done, from what i know, is the following:
- some countries are preparing a UN resolution (i know that France had a draft some time ago);
- there's been some conversations between the US and Lebanon to try to reach a cease fire (i don't think the UN are involved in this part), using arguments that would make it sound like Israel did nothing wrong;
- Israel is killing whoever they feel like; when they kill UN observers they say it was a mistake, when they kill civillians they say it's the Hezbollah's fault because they were hiding there.

as i see it, too little is being done to stop this madness. for fuck's sake, aren't 34 children enough to pay back the kidnapped soldiers? how many dead children would make the countries even???
 

chiisai_hana

-nipah!
Retired
The only way to stop Isreal is 'to give them a taste of their own medicine'. So long as they have the backing of the world's superpower ... but if Isreal began losing 34 children a day, maybe they'd think twice.


I heard the news today, someone saying "when will the world wake up to what is happening here! we need help!"

sad.gif
 

Bold

-kenja sama
Retired
QUOTE (darkdog @ Jul 30 2006, 01:16 PM) for fuck's sake, aren't 34 children enough to pay back the kidnapped soldiers? how many dead children would make the countries even???
This is no longer about the missing soldiers. At the beginning of last week, Israel announced it was offcially shifting the focus from th soldier's recovery to "stopping the Hezbolla's rocket attack on israelly soil".

Beside, I think everyone knows those soldiers are now dead. If they were still alive last week, that last bombing was their death sentence. No one curently holding them would keep them alive seeing how israel is completely ignoring those soldiers. It is now clear those two hostages have been declared by Israel as casualties of war.

The idea now is to protect israel, its soil and its citizen. The only problem is that it is not an easy task. But the easiest way to kill underground soldiers like Hezbolla (be carefull not to confuse Hezbola members with terrorists) is to actually destroy the place they are hiding. Since they are hiding in cities ... you see where the logics leads.

By the way, I know this may sound stupid and a bit of a shallow comment, but anyone has seen the similiralities between these events and some of the storylines in some Gundams series?? I am simply amazed at how an anime I would call a simple, surface, action-only entertainement anime is so similiar to real world events! Was it the series producers that were geniuses or the current actual people who a act in a stereotyped, anime like, shallow way??
 

Bold

-kenja sama
Retired
QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ Jul 30 2006, 11:06 PM) So they've officially given up on those soliders ... I think it was safe to assume at this point, but hadn't heard that.
They have not officially given up on the missing soldiers. They "shifted their focus away from that objective". Meaning it would still be on the objective list, but it is no longer the prime objective.
 

darkdog

-dredg
Retired
one of the thing that bothers me is that too many people / countries accept the casualties and side with the "human shield" excuse.. i mean, there's definitely a need to draw a line somewhere!

what if i said "oh, my enemies are in israel, and i don't know where they are and how they look like, so i'll kill everyone to make sure i kill my enemies as well! remember: it's their fault, if they didn't hide from me i wouldn't have to do this!"...

in my opinion, if you can't fight properly in the enemy's terrain, don't fight him. if you can't kill hezbollah members without killing civillians, don't do it. and that's what i had to say
smile.gif
 

noob

±ⁿ°°ɓ±
Retired
The thing is, with their technology, they know they can, but they refuse to do so. They just want to kill civilians under the name of 'fighting against terrorisim'

@ Chiisai, it's not like they were after the soldiers to begin with
tongue.gif
 

Konohamaru

-chan
Kouhai
QUOTE (Bold)By the way, I know this may sound stupid and a bit of a shallow comment, but anyone has seen the similiralities between these events and some of the storylines in some Gundams series?? I am simply amazed at how an anime I would call a simple, surface, action-only entertainement anime is so similiar to real world events! Was it the series producers that were geniuses or the current actual people who a act in a stereotyped, anime like, shallow way??

No, it sounds totally relevant to me. Gundam is not a dumb gratuitous series. Of course, the plots are mostly oriented action and romance, so the politics involved isn't very complex so that you don't get bored (or pass out like me from GITS SAC
biggrin.gif
). But sometimes they make one or two smart allusions.
Remember that scene in Gundam Seed when Andrew Wartfeld decided to destroy the houses of some north-african rebels ? He felt satisfied with himself because he took nobody's life, but the rebels flew into a towering rage about it, because he had just forced them to exile, so they came back determined to fight to death. The scene instantly reminded me of the Israelo-Palestinian conflict.

Arguments, diplomacy, tricks, hidden strategies in real life conflicts are infinitely more complex. But maybe it's because the arguments to wage a war are necessarily plain and mean that, from an exterior point of view, you get that impression. (that real life world politics is just a gundam anime without the cool gundams)

Just to add some fuel to the fire ...


QUOTE Bush Calls Attack on Qana ‘Awful,’ but Refrains From Calling for Immediate Cease-Fire

By JOHN M. BRODER
Published: August 1, 2006

WASHINGTON, July 31 — President Bush used the word “awful” to describe the lethal Israeli air attack on an apartment building in Qana, Lebanon, that killed dozens of civilians over the weekend, but he continued to resist calling on Israel to accept an immediate cease-fire.
Facing one of the most awkward moments in recent relations with Israel, he described the current Middle East crisis as part of a larger struggle between the forces of freedom and the forces of terror. He said the United States remained steadfast in its support of Israel’s right to defend itself against cross-border attacks by Hezbollah militants. But he also said the administration was working urgently through the United Nations to fashion what he called a “sustainable” cessation of hostilities.
He sought to broaden the context of the current fighting, saying that Iran and Syria must end their support of terrorism in the Middle East and beyond.
“For decades, the status quo in the Middle East permitted tyranny and terror to thrive,” Mr. Bush said at an appearance before members of the Coast Guard in Miami. “And as we saw on Sept. 11, the status quo in the Middle East led to death and destruction in the United States, and it had to change.”

Hey, shame on you people who call Bush an idiot. When will you start to realize ? This man is a genius !! Of course, when they had peace in the Middle East, americans had to deal with terrorism inside the 'homeland'. Now that Israel is at war with Palestinians and Lebanese, the 'homeland' is safe ! And now that Iraq has turned into 'wonderland' - a place were Arabs kill Arabs - all they have to do is take the troops out and no more sadness no more sorrow. That's it: simple and radical ! have them fight between themselves
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Murderous bastard
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QUOTE He did not refer directly to the airstrike on the village of Qana in his public appearance in Miami, but in a later interview with Fox News Channel, he said that he wanted to see the killing in southern Lebanon end.
“And look, it’s a terrible situation when innocent people lose their lives,” Mr. Bush said. “And yesterday’s situation was awful. We, I understand that. But it’s also awful that a million Israelis are worried about rockets being fired from their, from their neighbor to the north.”
Mr. Bush has not spoken directly with Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister, about the Qana bombing and did not plan to do so, a White House spokesman said Monday.
Support for Israel remained strong in Congress but as the military and civilian crisis grew, Senator Chuck Hagel, Republican of Nebraska, said that American friendship with Israel had to be balanced by concern for relations with Muslim nations. He urged Mr. Bush to become more deeply engaged in the region and broker an end to the fighting quickly.
“The sickening slaughter on both sides must end now,” Senator Hagel said in a floor statement. “President Bush must call for an immediate cease-fire. This madness must stop.”

It's rejoicing to see that the Congress at least still contains a few reasonable individuals - what's more Hagel is Republican. A standing ovation to this man: condemnation of massacres should know no party lines.


QUOTE White House officials said they believed that the president was not yet facing serious erosion of domestic political support for his approach to the Middle East, but that they hoped the administration’s diplomacy would bear fruit over the next few days.
If the White House seemed shaken on Sunday, by Monday it had turned back forcefully to the line it had held since the crisis began nearly three weeks ago.
“In terms of the overall outlines of the strategy, they are the same,” Tony Snow, Mr. Bush’s spokesman, said in a telephone interview. “Nor are you going to change your approach to what you think a real effective solution to the problem in Lebanon is, which is to have Hezbollah cease operating as an independent force.”
President Bush told Fox News that one element of the emerging plan for a cease-fire was to restore Lebanese military control over its southern border with Israel, which the nascent government in Beirut had essentially ceded to armed Hezbollah fighters.
“We want that young democracy in Lebanon to succeed,” Mr. Bush said. “And one way to help it succeed is to help the Lebanese Army move to the south, and then, with help from forces from elsewhere, begin to bring some security to the region, for the sake of the Lebanese people and the Israelis.”

Read: "we want another civil war, and if possible drag some of those stupid continental Europeans [also known as elsewherians] into it, to teach them the sweet taste of roadside bombs and ambushes"


QUOTE
President Bush planned to meet with Secretary Rice and National Security Adviser Stephen J. Hadley on Monday night to discuss strategy for dealing with the crisis.
Helene Cooper and Jim Rutenberg contributed reporting for this article.
 

Bold

-kenja sama
Retired
QUOTE (Konohamaru @ Aug 03 2006, 06:12 PM)... what's more Hagel is Republican. A standing ovation to this man: condemnation of massacres should know no party lines.
The US political does not have a "party line". At least not in the same sense that most other country see it. For instance, if a canadian deputy votes against his party resolution on a "party vote", he will be throwed out of the cocus.

In the US, all senator have their own opinion. Of course most of the times, belonging to a party means your ideas are similar to that of other members of the parties. But there are some notable distinctions between the individuals. It is VERY common to have some republican senator vote against a motion even if it is a motion supported by the republican president.


QUOTE But sometimes they make one or two smart allusions.
Remember that scene in Gundam Seed when Andrew Wartfeld I agree that Barthlefed is a great character. In my opinion, he is one of the seed series best design deepest character. Non the less, I would not look upon seed for a deeper understanding of the real world ... I might end up blowing up everything
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===

Today another master card has been played in this "game" curently being played out. Israel declared that they were securiung the southern part of Liban with ground troops until an international force would take their position and "prevent the Hezbolla from operating in the area".

This may look like an opening on the Israelly side, but its not. The fight with Hezbolla will be a long one and might go on for long. Don't forget they are gorila fighters supported by a part of the civilian population (a bit like the north vietnamease gorilla soldiers during the Vietnam war). So if an internatyional force took the place of the Israellian army, who would end up having to do the dirty work of fighting gorilla soldiers who, in their mind, are only protecting their land?

I can already see the big mess this situation would leave Liban and the country having soldiers there.
But it is an interesting move from Israel, after all, having someone else fight your battle is ALWAYS the best solution! No casulties, no lost, no mistakes (at least on your own side)
 

darkdog

-dredg
Retired
time to bring this topic up a little, now on a more anti-US note
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QUOTE US seeks to shield its war interrogators: report
Wed Aug 9, 2:05 AM ET
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Political appointees, CIA officers and former military personnel would not face prosecution for humiliating or degrading wartime prisoners under amendments to a war crimes law drafted by the Bush administration, the Washington Post reported on Wednesday
(from yahoo news)

so let's make a small list. a country that:
- doesn't accept their soldiers to be judged under a war court;
- is known to hold prisioners that aren't protected under the Geneva Conventions;
- doesn't want interrogations to be protected under the Geneva Conventions;
- doesn't have democratic elections (because one person's vote can be more valuable than another person's vote -- the presidential elections aren't universal);
- has a president who was NOT fairly elected for his first mandate (florida anyone?)

... how can such a country teach anyone anything about democracy? how can they tell anyone that they did the wrong choice?

and a second topic: an israeli fighter plane landed on the US base in the Azores. that's being talked about in here, but i want to know more details before i say anything else.

/jp, on a very anti-US phase
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Catnip

-chan
Kouhai
You would have thought that 20 years in Lebanon would have taught the Israelis that there not welcome there, and that the guerilla war isn't going to end until either side is totally eliminated. Looks like Israel might have to be resorting to mass genocide then.

The entire things a debacle, no one's clearly in the right, no ones in the wrong. We can't start dumping the blame squarely on the US either, as the case seems these days. Yes, the US are arming and equiping the IDF, yet the british let the US planes ferry weapons through Heathrow.

England had, up until a while ago, two well armed cruisers sitting in the Mediteranian, within perfect striking distance of Tel Aviv. Maybe a small show of force would have stopped the Isralis from acting but that window of opportunity went away. All that we can wait for now is the IDF to get themselves slowly slaughtered, popular opinion to turn against the war inside Israel itself and for them to pull out.

Either that or wait for Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Jordan and all the rest of the countries that Israel have annoyed over the years to get their act's together and launch a joint campaign against them, and that ladies and gents, would be very bad indeed.
 

Bold

-kenja sama
Retired
QUOTE (Catnip @ Aug 09 2006, 09:48 PM) Either that or wait for Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Jordan and all the rest of the countries that Israel have annoyed over the years ...
You are right about the first three (althought Palestine is not technicly a country).

But Israel did nothing against Jordan. They would not dare. Because Jordan is VERY close to the US. It is one of the only airbases in that area that military US planes use for re-suply and various operations. Of course, officially, Jordan does not support the US. But if you simply look at the air field and know your planes a bit, you will see lots of planes that only the US operate.
 

Catnip

-chan
Kouhai
QUOTE (Bold @ Aug 10 2006, 05:16 AM) But Israel did nothing against Jordan.
Ahh, my bad, I always thought they were in the coaltition that attacked them around the 60's, but that may have been Syria.

I've always heard there was bad blood between Israel and Jordan as a fair amount of weapons are shipped through there to Palestine from Iraq and Iran. But then again maybe im wrong.
 

Bold

-kenja sama
Retired
QUOTE (Catnip @ Aug 10 2006, 07:38 AM)I've always heard there was bad blood between Israel and Jordan as a fair amount of weapons are shipped through there to Palestine from Iraq and Iran. But then again maybe im wrong. Oh, they are not friends. But Israel would not attack them because there would be major long term political/military implications. And don't forget that Jordan's ties with the US are not exactly oficial either. So Jordans does do a few minor things that irritate Israel, but they would not do something major.

Beside, as far as weapons are concerned, don't confuse the goverment and the underground groups that go througth there. It would be like saying "Are there cocaine sellers in the US? Yes!?!?! Then the US is a pro-cocaine country!!"

All in all, Israel is preatty happy that Jordan acts as a buffer between them and Saudi Arabia. There is actually a lot more bad blood between Jordan / Saudi Arabia then between Israel / Jordan. So Israel as a "shield" between them and on of the most rich nation of the area. (and who says rich says powerfull)
 

noob

±ⁿ°°ɓ±
Retired
I thought it was more like Russians send weapons to Lebnon... Well, more like send it to Iran and ask them to deliver it to Lebenese... Don't know how they do it though... Nobody really knows
 
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