Christianity


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Bold

-kenja sama
Retired
This is to continue the discussion that started in the what are you doing thread with Angel. the idea is to discuss the differences between the major branches of christianity.

This is not a conversion thread. So please no arguments saying "one religion is better because ..." and I better not see anyone say anything disrespectfull

QUOTE (Angel453455 @ Mar 11 2006, 09:15 PM)*raises my hand*
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to make things clear... i'm not chatolic... i'm a protestant...
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so in a way we really get more serious in our faith...
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First, what do you mean by more serious in our faith?

Second, according to my memory, protestant don't belive in the forgiving ceremony (not sure of the actual english word for it, its when you confess to a priest your sins and ask forgiveness) and I seem to remeber there is something about the holy ghost (but I might be wrong or it might be about the anglicans)

Anyone knowing the answer can respond, I am asking this because it continues on what angel and I started to discuss via PMs

Edit
I nearly forgot. I am technicly a catholic. So I can speak for that branch.
 
based on my experiences with being with chatolic buddies in school... i say it again based on normal highschoolers in our school... they who are chatolic just go to mass... just to be there... then continue to do how they live there lives like nothing happened... but in comparison in my church... we kinda dwell more about the Bible... then we discuss it with each other... then we think of ways we could apply it in our lives...

i know there are also chatolics there who take God seriously and not forgranted... but just saying that majority of the people i'm with who are chatolics just go to church and confess because it was already a tradition... and a ritual they must go everyday...

also we protestants believe that we need to confess our sins directly to God...
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no more priest or wat so ever... but we share still to our trusted friends in church wat we have done to improve our Christian walk and to avoid doing the same sin again...
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QUOTE (Angel453455 @ Mar 11 2006, 10:08 PM)also we protestants believe that we need to confess our sins directly to God...
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no more priest or wat so ever... So no intermediate, directly to the source!

I would be curious as to what brougth that change. I mean, it is a MAJOR difference, would it be because the first protestant leader belived some priest were misusing the power they had to hear everything from everyone? Or is it purely based on their interpretation of the bible?


What about the holy ghost question? Does protestant belive in the trinity (father, son and holy ghost)? If not, what is the saying when making a cross sign before praying? (in the name of the ...)

As for the discussion part, I would say it really depends on the people. Some are more into it than others. Some simply do it out of tradition (which I belive is not a good reason, people should think for themselves and not simply do thinks because their neighboors are doing it but because they belive in it!). I personnaly know some catholics that are a lot into discussing and and applying their beliefs to the real world.

Also, anyone remember what brougth about the division? I knew it once, but I forgot. It got something to do with the founder of the protestant movement, Switzling or something similar if my memory is correct. But last time I discussed this I was in high school in a class, so its been quite a while!!
 
we directly confess to God because it is written in 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins to God, He will forgive our sins because we can trust God to do what is right. He will cleanse us from all the wrongs we have done."
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it said confess it to God and not to any person... and that is wat we believe.
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the cross before praying part is something we don't do because for one... it is not written in the Bible that such thing should be done when praying to Him... But we acknowledge that there is the Holy Trinity...

The one that brought the division what martin luther...
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it was because in the period of renassiance or enlighthenment i think... the Church was being corrupt and making the teachings and the way to go to Heaven being sold by money...

They made people believe that they need to pay with money to go to Heaven... Martin Luther was also a priest of the Catholic Church but when he saw how wrong the Church became... he wrote the 59 thesis infront of the gate of the Church in his place and wrote books which totally went against what the Church teaches that were not found in the Bible...

it is because we Protestants really follow what is said in the Bible... cause it is God's word.
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and church interpretations of God's word could be wrong but what the Bible or God's word could never be wrong.
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also there are many other factors why they splitted but that is the primary reason why... based on what i learn in school.
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I dont have any religion, but i belive in god, I asked myself a lot of question, like for example, in nature energy (and matery) isn´t created or destroyes, it only transforms, but if thats true, how the energy is there?? someone should create it, isnt it?
Im not religous because I hate how religion is used, its like brainswashing, but protestantism its different. And so i belive in them, but still belive god´s everywhere
 
Also here's a something we Protestants also believe... that religion is not something that would bring you to Heaven... It is your faith and relationship with God.
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If you believe with your whole heart sincerly that Jesus the son of God died for your sins for you to spend eternity with Him and accept Him as your Lord and Savior... Then watever your religion is but believe in that points and also strive to know Him and love Him by reading the Bible and spending time with Him in prayer then it is ok with us...
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but of course that is the explaination for people who are hooked in religion aspects... but we still have the protestant religion cause for us people that believe that principle to be together and help each other grow more in the likeness of God.
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(First of all, before I get into anything serious, let's put our h's in the right spot. It's catholic not chatolic. Sorry. Not a biggie, but I am a high school teacher after all.)

The reason Protestants do not confess to a priest goes back to two concepts. First of all, in ancient times, the followers of God were separated from God by sin. The priests were the only ones allowed to come before God (not to say that God didn't know or didn't care about what happened to the little guy when the priest wasn't acting on his behalf). Secondly and very importantly, when Jesus was crucified and He gave up His soul, the curtain in the temple separating the Holy of Holies from the rest of the temple was split in two. This curtain was thick and an earthquake (specifically the one that happened at Jesus's death) would not have resulted in its separation. This is the foundation for Protestants believing that we no longer have to use a priest as an intermediary between us and God. We (because I am one) take this as a sign that that which was separating us and God has been removed (namely sin, which is now covered and forgiven by the blood of the Christ).

Instead of going to a priest to confess, Protestants are to confess their sins directly to God. Also, confessing our sins to each other (put not necessarily to our priest or pastor or reverend or whatever your brand of Protestantism calls him) is a way that we stay accountable to keep from committing that sin.

As to the matter of the Trinity, most branches of Protestantism believe in the Trinity. Why only most? That is because the concept of the trinity is never explicitly stated in the Bible. It is something that has been gleaned from study and handed down for generations. The early church fathers that were involved in putting the Bible together were also responsible for much of our current extra-Biblical theology. Thus, most branches of Protestantism believe in the Trinity, but there are some that say the early fathers overstepped their bounds and that the concept of the Trinity is heresy. I would be, however, greatly surprised if even one person on this site who believed in Christianity held that there was no Trinity as, again, most Christians (and when I say Christians, I mean all of Christianity which includes Protestants and Catholics) believe in the Trinity.

As to the behavior of Catholics, there is, more or less, an impression among the more religious Protestants that Catholics are really only Christian in name. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I agree, I'm just saying that the impression is there. I also have a theory as to why that is. Here goes. Catholicism is older in the sense that it has continued for centuries as the body from which the other branches split. Like any group, the sad truth is that every group can survive on just ideals for only a short while. Eventually, every group that lasts must organize and that include creating customs, rituals, hierarchy, and other such things in order to make sure that the original ideals are being taught and upheld. Being older, Catholicism has had more time to create and perpetuate such rituals (which are not necessarily bad but can distract from the true purpose over time [give Protestantism another century or so and you'll probably see it just as clearly]). These rituals give some the impression that if they follow the motions, then they are Catholics and as such they call themselves Catholic. The truth is they have missed the true purpose of the rituals and of coming together as a body of believers. Unfortunately, as seems to usually be the case, we usually see the bad sides of a group before we see the good sides. And thus, a bad impression of the Catholicism is created. It would be fair to add that Protestantism has its fair share of hypocrites as well. The thing is, though, that given Protestantism's lack of standardized rituals, it is harder to see some of the hypocrites. (Food for thought: There is no such thing as a nominal, or non-practicing, Christian, Protestant, or Catholic. That's like me saying I'm a supporter of PETA but then going hunting and eating a cheeseburger afterwards. I may say I'm a supporter, but my actions will speak louder than my words.)

As to the split, yes, Martin Luther was the cause of the split, though, he was trying to reform the church, not split it apart. Also, he wrote 95 theses (plural of thesis) and nailed them to the door of the church. The theses highlight, as Angel said, areas where the church was no longer following the teachings of the Bible.

One thing Angel, I'm not sure exactly what you meant, but Protestants and Catholics both follow what is said in the Bible. The major difference is that Catholicism sees the Bible through lenses tinted with rituals and customs but also tinted with tradition and teachings from the early fathers of the church. Protestantism breaks away from the rituals in order, one, to not be distracted by them (though we are starting to build our own) and, two, to gain a deeper understanding of God by going back to source from which the rituals were created.

One last thought to leave you all with: Many people seem to think that Protestants are Christians and Catholics are Catholics. We are all Christians. Catholicism and Protestantism are both branches from the same tree. However, there are some things in our tree that claim to be branches but are actually just tricycles that got blow in during the last tornado. But don't worry, eventually someone will take them down (I mean that in the metaphorical sense).

About the length, gomen.
 
QUOTE About the length, gomen. Its nice to know I am not the only one doing long posts
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QUOTE (Food for thought: There is no such thing as a nominal, or non-practicing, Christian, Protestant, or Catholic. That's like me saying I'm a supporter of PETA but then going hunting and eating a cheeseburger afterwards. I may say I'm a supporter, but my actions will speak louder than my words.) I agree with the first part that someone saying he is a non practicing member of any religion is an non sense. You can be something in between, but then you cannot wear the label of that religion (which is not necessarily a bad thing. Some people using labels tend to not think too much because someone already thougth in their place. And that is not only true of religious matters.)

But what exactly is PETA??
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Now the one question that comes across my mind is "are those differences the only ones??? Why were some people willing to kill one another over that!!" I guess basicly the only people it did bother were the one that were loosing importance, namingly the priests.

But I totally agree with what you said about the age of an organization. The problem is that some people get use to their positions and they loose sigth of why they are there. It is true of every religion and even none religious organization (look at what happens when the same goverment has been in place for 20 years!!)

With religion, it can get even more dangerous, beacuse people in power can start to say that their word is what gad wants. Who could disagree with god! But in truth, that person is only using his personnal interpretation to maintain his position of power. You can see it with catholics (like you said before), same is true of islam (just think of Ben Laden and his holy war), jews have it with hasidim (not sure about spelling) rabins trying to isolate the comunity, etc, etc

So discussion and thinking for yourself is really the key.
 
Never ask questions on the internet. Look it up.

PETA is a major animal rights group.
 
Thank you Exhausted. PETA stands for "People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals". This group has been known to go to extremes for their cause.

QUOTE You can see it with catholics (like you said before), same is true of islam (just think of Ben Laden and his holy war), jews have it with hasidim (not sure about spelling) rabins trying to isolate the comunity, etc, etc

Well, a couple things. First, yes, Bin Laden probably does use jihad (holy war) to maintain his position, but it is not "his holy war". Jihad is something that much of the Arab world agrees with and endorses. In fact, if you look at it historically, the Muslim's almost took over Europe through jihad. It is a part of their religion. However, I think the biggest issue on that front is their tactics during jihad, not so much that there is jihad. Also, the Hassidic rabbis may be using isolationism to maintain their positions, but keeping their people pure for the glory of God is still part of their belief system.

My point is that the more radical you get, the issue becomes less a matter of whether the people are hypocritical and more a matter of whether or not they are right. If radical Muslims are right about what they believe, then they should be involved in jihad and should never cease. Also, if the Hassidic Jews are correct, then they should keep themselves away from the temptations of the heathen gentiles. Basically put, if these groups are right, God have mercy on us.
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If they are wrong, God have mercy on them.
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(As a matter of interest, if any of you want a better understanding of what is currently happening in the Middle East, you need to start about 1500 years ago and work your way forward. I suggest reading After Jihad: America and the Struggle for Islamic Democracy by Noah Feldman and Between Memory and Desire: The Middle East in a Troubled Age by R. Stephen Humphreys.)
 
QUOTE (High School Sensei @ Mar 12 2006, 06:52 PM)Well, a couple things. First, yes, Bin Laden probably does use jihad (holy war) to maintain his position, but it is not "his holy war". Jihad is something that much of the Arab world agrees with and endorses. I purposely did not used the word Jihad because the Jihad is a part of muslim religion. But the curent action of extremists who use islam to justify themselves is not endorced or suported by the majority of moslems. Actually, most many islamic religious leaders disagree with those actions because they are terrorist action and not representative of the ideals of islam. But if you were to listen to those extremists, they would justify themselves saying they are defending the muslims of the world (and not just the arabs, moslems and arabs are not quite the same. One is a sub group of the other, but that is completely another subject)

The point was all of those people actually belive they are doing the right thing. But since they are also regular humans, their own understanding is limited. When they read their sacred text, they will interpret it. Wether or not they want to. 2 people of the same religion will always have sligthly different interpretation of sacred texts.

If you were to challenge any of these person, their first reaction will be to hang on to the belives they have. But deep down, they are glad those belives aer there because it maintains them in a position of power (in the above example). Of course there are extremly decent people in every religious organization. But when an organisation gets as big as catholicism, protestancism, islam, etc. there are bound to be a few "roten apples".

The only way for the belivers to protect themselves from these people is for them to think for themselves.


QUOTE I suggest reading After Jihad: America and the Struggle for Islamic Democracy by Noah Feldman and Between Memory and Desire: The Middle East in a Troubled Age by R. Stephen Humphreys. I have to admit I am always suspicious of books relating specificly to middle east and the USA. Based on those I came across, they tend to be extremly biassed.

I checked the table of content of the second one (google schoolar is really impressive!, at least for english and mainly USA publications). It looks really interesting. I may read it when I have a bit of time (the big question is WHEN is that going to be!) Thanks for the suggestion
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As you said, people in a religious group have to think for themselves. As such and given my own perspective on the Middle East, whether or not the Muslim world agrees with Bin Laden's tactics is not relevant (yes, I know there is a difference between Muslims and Arabs, there is a big overlap, but neither group encompasses the other, and there was very little reason why you should have known what I just stated here...gomen). The reason is too complicated and long for me to get into at this time.

About the books, if you do read one or both of them, focus on the history of the Middle East and look for the change that occurred over the centuries. One thing to think about, the Middle East used to be the center of civilization and under the flag (figuratively speaking) of Islam, they conquerred a vast range of land. A lot has changed.
 
You guys are now going off topic since Islam is not really related to Christianity unless you choose to look back to the beginning of the religions.

To get it back on track - I am a Buddist so if I offend anyone with my ignorance, I will say sorry right now
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That said, I remember reading long time ago that Lutherans came to be because a British? king decided to divorce his wife and since h couldn't, because she was reelated to pope, he started his own branch so he could get another wife. Is this accurate?
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QUOTE (High School Sensei @ Mar 12 2006, 12:50 AM) We (because I am one)

As to the matter of the Trinity, most branches of Protestantism believe in the Trinity. Why only most? That is because the concept of the trinity is never explicitly stated in the Bible.
*raises hand to the teacher* so your also a protestant?
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cool! :rooleyes: nice to meet you!
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anyway the concept of the trinity was said in the Bible... but you have to study it to find out.
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for example:
in John14:6 Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the FATHER except through me."
John 3:16 "for God so love the world that He gave His only SON that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."
2 Corinthians 13:14 " The grace of the Lord Jesus Chirst and the love of God, and the fellowship of the HOLY SPIRIT be with you all."

also to make a long story short... for us protestants we based as i said before in the Bible... anything a pastor or anyone would say that is contradictory to the Bible should be judged guilty. (Galatians 1:7-9)

@neutrality: that branch of Christianity (i think) is the one about the arguement with the pope and a british king... because of unresolve things the british king decided to remove itself from the main church and create its own... and yes it was because of a divorce problem...
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A: bible was written by humans , could be bullsht , in other words, i could write in my agenda "God does not exist"and the i`d be right too?
B: foolish christians are still fighting with eachother, they worhip the same god, but theyre still stupid..
C: why the hell are you quoting the bible?! it`s an anime forum FFs , and don`t go "but it`s christianity topic" it`s about christian brances, not what the bible says , they all have the same bible so that don`t matter.
D: bible has so many pages a`nd it`s been translated a 1000 times , im sure somene could have made stuff up , i donno i didnt read it, if i have a desire to read a 100+ page book , i`ll just read the english all-in-1 LOTR book i have ^^
 
QUOTE (neutrality @ Mar 14 2006, 12:58 AM)That said, I remember reading long time ago that Lutherans came to be because a British? king decided to divorce his wife and since h couldn't, because she was reelated to pope, he started his own branch so he could get another wife. Is this accurate?
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Those are the Anglicans (or is Lutherans the actual english word and Anglican simply me doing a straingth french to english translation??)

But what you described is acurate. That is why Englad has its own branch of christianity and the king of england as the position of "pope".

@Angel
Wceend has a point. Unlike him, I did read the bible and there are very interesting things in it. But I don't belive we can safely do a word for word literal analysis of it. Too many translations and recopying for that. And also don't forget that the person who originaly wrote it was a human living in his own time. So he was culturally biassed.

It does not mean that there is nothing good in the bible. But doing a word for word literal interpretation seems a bit futile and non-productive.

Beside, corect me if I am wrong, but are'nt the bible version of the different branch of christianity sligthly different? I mean some have more texts in it other have different version of the same text. So how could we know for sure the right and corect one?
 
First off i would like to address what wceend said. The thread just mentioned the fact that
members of any religious group are divided into ppl who think about and understand their own
beliefs and ppl who follow it for other reasons (social, ideological preference, regulations, benefit,
etc) which means in both religions some one has concluded that their religion is correct based on
historical, scientific, philosophical, moral, ethical, human nature, the source, development, and
religious accuracy, translation issues . Each of these areas have questions that need to be
answered.

I personally have concluded that these are correctly answered in the bible/ Christian faith(
specifically protestant). If ny one wants me to give my reasoning message me or start a new topic.

With that said the bible can be quoted because it is the source of the Christian religion even if u
deny its integrity because it’s the source of this thread. Although i must note studies have been
done on the translation process and recopying of the scriptures and iv concluded (along with
others) that many translations are accurate I’ve even done alittle personal greek sudy my self
although im not good at all. Although catholic and protestant use diffrent books and transtlations
within the bible. But think about plato and homer and the accuracy of some of their books do u
doubt those as well?

Also within the catholic and protestant religions there are many denominations so that kind of
hinders the discussion a little bit. With the area of Christians arguing amongst them selves. But
this division is created by difference in interpretation and practical application of concepts
addressed in the bible. But this goes back to the idea of ppl who think and ppl who don’t which
every group has.

There is a possibility in every group that are ppl just there to take advantage of the situation so
they try to get into a position where they can acquire what ever they were after (powe,r money,
personal philosophical agendas) which could corrupt a religion. Luther was saying that however
this happened something got distorted in the catholic religion (my point is what martin luthar was
doin not to bash catholic don’t get me wrong pls) so that’s y he wrote the thesis. I did hear that
same rumor about a king and divorce and it is still a denominational issue today(devorce not the
king) but wether it was because he believed it or was taking advantage im not sure.

One small and final note the term Christian originally was an insult that meant “ little Christ” and
today some groups allow the name to be applied to them even though they don’t apply the name
in the same way many other groups do. All Catholics believe Jesus to be the literal Son of God
(deep explanation required if u don’t understand message me) where as a few of protestant
religions actually don’t they explain it differently ( some included groups i think are Joehovas
witness, and the “Church of Jesus Christ of latter Day Saints”) but many Protestants including me
use the catholic explanation of Jesus’s deity.

I always thought the romaji (i think that’s the word i want or maybe transliteration) was comen
not gomen but ny way im sorry for my bad English, over use of “lists and parenthesis”, my length
and lack of clarity. So gomen gomen gomen
 
QUOTE (roscoeivan @ Mar 14 2006, 12:57 PM)which means in both religions some one has concluded that their religion is correct based on
historical, scientific, philosophical, moral, ethical, human nature, the source, development, and
religious accuracy, translation issues . I agree with most of what you said. But please remove scientific from there. It has no business there. Science and religion are not related. That is why they can safely cohabitate one with the other. Science explains the mechanics of phenomenon. Religion is related to the spirituality and the how those mechanics came to be.

You cannot proove or deny religion using science and vice versa. When you try to mix those two concept you end up with a rather ugly picture! Think of witch burnig and other nasty thing against scientists because they prooved the earth was not flat and not the center of the universe!


QUOTE With that said the bible can be quoted because it is the source of the Christian religion I am not sure if that was addressed at me or Wceend. So I will answer it. I did not say you could not quote it. I said you cannot do a literal word for word quote. You have to look at the message (in other word, the second and third degree) not the words (or the channel).

If I can quote the bible myslef, let take the passage (forgive me if I don't give exact reference numbers) about Jesus saying when slapped on one cheek you should present the second one for a second slap. If we take that literally, we have a slapping contest on our hands! If we look at the underlying message, it means basicly the same principle the budist belive in and that Ghandi defended. Responding to violence with violence is usally not the solution.
 
QUOTE (Bold @ Mar 14 2006, 10:57 AM) @Angel
Wceend has a point. Unlike him, I did read the bible and there are very interesting things in it. But I don't belive we can safely do a word for word literal analysis of it.

But i do believe it is really accurate word per word detail...
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just now trust me in this ok? it is because i'm so pressured to leave the house now i can't give all the details...

but simply to just make one fact... the books of the new testament have about 10,000 different site sources according to archeological findings... also they talk the same Bible... i think that is enought for now and enough sources to defend the New testament.
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bold: i was refering to weecends coment on quoting the bible not the literal translation issue. however i belive the original text is accurate as God intended and some religions use different translations which could make a huge difference but thats y quotes are important. if u want i can try to explain more indepth but i dont think thats the real topic am i wrong. the topic is denominational diffrences in chritianity but we could discuss this more if ppl want.

secondly every religion has to adress the issue of science. some times its as simple as supernatural powers that humans cant understand but christians belive God created the world including the building block an scientific principles(ie God created gravity that we are boud by unless he changes it) also some denominations belive in a evolutionanry creation (God used the bigbang/evolution to create the world) but i think that undemines the characer of god laid out in the bible. so any way any "world view" (i dont really like that term) or religion must adress science if even if its science dosent have all the facts.

Note there is a chritian anime website for those interested
Christian anime alliance
 
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