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QUOTE (hadji_129 @ Nov 19 2006, 06:22 AM) Interesting.
Why is the book of Revelation seen as truth though? Has any of the previous prophecies come to pass? Who wrote the book?
The Book of Revelation was written by the Apostle John. John was one of Jesus' closest associates. His gospel defines the essential position that Jesus Christ was more than a special man anointed by God, but was God become man, "God with us."
As for prophesies coming to pass, the book is in the prophetic tradition which has seen prophesy come true on many occasions. The Jews would not have accepted their prophets if their short-term prophesies had not come true. So when they spoke of long-term prophesy, it was assumed that would also come true. The Book of Daniel contains very specific prophesy which is verifiable. (Of course, some then insist it must have been written after the fact, but the Jews accept him as a prophet even today).
Why is the Book of Revelation seen as truth? Its author has impeccable credentials. His writings to the churches in chapters 2 and 3 reveal a knowledge of the culture and history of the times that an imposter of later writing would not. Some archaeological finds in recent years have shed light on some figures of speech used. In chapter 2, a prophesy regarding the suffering church in one city was fulfilled.
But just as importantly, the doctrine and prophesy in the book does not contradict doctrine elsewhere and other accepted prophesy. Such considerations were key points when considering whether a book belonged within the canon of Scripture.
Regards,
Why is the book of Revelation seen as truth though? Has any of the previous prophecies come to pass? Who wrote the book?
The Book of Revelation was written by the Apostle John. John was one of Jesus' closest associates. His gospel defines the essential position that Jesus Christ was more than a special man anointed by God, but was God become man, "God with us."
As for prophesies coming to pass, the book is in the prophetic tradition which has seen prophesy come true on many occasions. The Jews would not have accepted their prophets if their short-term prophesies had not come true. So when they spoke of long-term prophesy, it was assumed that would also come true. The Book of Daniel contains very specific prophesy which is verifiable. (Of course, some then insist it must have been written after the fact, but the Jews accept him as a prophet even today).
Why is the Book of Revelation seen as truth? Its author has impeccable credentials. His writings to the churches in chapters 2 and 3 reveal a knowledge of the culture and history of the times that an imposter of later writing would not. Some archaeological finds in recent years have shed light on some figures of speech used. In chapter 2, a prophesy regarding the suffering church in one city was fulfilled.
But just as importantly, the doctrine and prophesy in the book does not contradict doctrine elsewhere and other accepted prophesy. Such considerations were key points when considering whether a book belonged within the canon of Scripture.
Regards,
QUOTE The Book of Revelation was written by the Apostle John. John was one of Jesus' closest associates. His gospel defines the essential position that Jesus Christ was more than a special man anointed by God, but was God become man, "God with us."
I have my doubts that the Apostle John wrote that book and I'm also aware that many Christian theologians have different opinions on who the author was, many agree that it was another John. Where in the book does it say that Christ is more than a man? "God with us" is Immanuel, right? Can I find Christ being called that in the book of Revelation?
QUOTE His writings to the churches in chapters 2 and 3 reveal a knowledge of the culture and history of the times that an imposter of later writing would not. Some archaeological finds in recent years have shed light on some figures of speech used. In chapter 2, a prophesy regarding the suffering church in one city was fulfilled.
Can you please pinpoint the verses where the prophecy occurs? Also, chapters three includes knowledge of culture and history... so how can what occurs in the previous chapter be seen as a prophecy?
These questions aren't only directed at Rtgmath. I would appreciate it if anyone else were to participate in this discussion.
I have my doubts that the Apostle John wrote that book and I'm also aware that many Christian theologians have different opinions on who the author was, many agree that it was another John. Where in the book does it say that Christ is more than a man? "God with us" is Immanuel, right? Can I find Christ being called that in the book of Revelation?
QUOTE His writings to the churches in chapters 2 and 3 reveal a knowledge of the culture and history of the times that an imposter of later writing would not. Some archaeological finds in recent years have shed light on some figures of speech used. In chapter 2, a prophesy regarding the suffering church in one city was fulfilled.
Can you please pinpoint the verses where the prophecy occurs? Also, chapters three includes knowledge of culture and history... so how can what occurs in the previous chapter be seen as a prophecy?
These questions aren't only directed at Rtgmath. I would appreciate it if anyone else were to participate in this discussion.
honestly i think we are not starting yet. XD
Christianly speaking... our days are not also God's days.
maybe 1 day for him is 100 yrs in our years or so. take the prophecies
it said something about 40 yrs before it would come true but i think... i said i think cause i'm just saying what i can remeber... it took like 40 generators...
OMG!!!
just correct me in the year part and the prophecy.. using stock knowledge here. XD
so really don't know... anyway if the rapture occured.. then we are somewhere there. XD
Christianly speaking... our days are not also God's days.
maybe 1 day for him is 100 yrs in our years or so. take the prophecies
it said something about 40 yrs before it would come true but i think... i said i think cause i'm just saying what i can remeber... it took like 40 generators...
just correct me in the year part and the prophecy.. using stock knowledge here. XD
so really don't know... anyway if the rapture occured.. then we are somewhere there. XD
QUOTE (hadji_129 @ Nov 19 2006, 04:02 PM)I have my doubts that the Apostle John wrote that book and I'm also aware that many Christian theologians have different opinions on who the author was, many agree that it was another John. Where in the book does it say that Christ is more than a man? "God with us" is Immanuel, right? Can I find Christ being called that in the book of Revelation?
First chapter of Gospel according to John describes the godly nature of Christ as Logos (the Word).
John 1:1 (KJV): "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Then, in the author of the Gospel stated that the Word became flesh (man).
John 1:14 (KJV): "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..."
I think that rtgmath refers to these verses, not the Book of Revelation.
The Book of Revelation also describes the godly nature of Christ:
Rev 1:1 (KJV): "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John."
Rev 5:6 (KJV): "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."
Rev 22:13 (KJV): "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."
Gospel of John and Book of Revelation focuses in Christology (Jesus Christ as Logos) . Other gospels focuses in human side of Jesus Christ.
QUOTE (rtgmath @ Nov 19 2006, 08:17 AM)In chapter 2, a prophesy regarding the suffering church in one city was fulfilled.
I think chapter 2 and 3 describes the present condition of Church when the Revelation was given, not prophecies for Church.
First chapter of Gospel according to John describes the godly nature of Christ as Logos (the Word).
John 1:1 (KJV): "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Then, in the author of the Gospel stated that the Word became flesh (man).
John 1:14 (KJV): "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..."
I think that rtgmath refers to these verses, not the Book of Revelation.
The Book of Revelation also describes the godly nature of Christ:
Rev 1:1 (KJV): "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John."
Rev 5:6 (KJV): "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."
Rev 22:13 (KJV): "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."
Gospel of John and Book of Revelation focuses in Christology (Jesus Christ as Logos) . Other gospels focuses in human side of Jesus Christ.
QUOTE (rtgmath @ Nov 19 2006, 08:17 AM)In chapter 2, a prophesy regarding the suffering church in one city was fulfilled.
I think chapter 2 and 3 describes the present condition of Church when the Revelation was given, not prophecies for Church.
well....to begin with adam and eve are the first sinners being that they ate the apple...now as we are the offspring of adam and eve....we are also plagued my sin
romans 5:12 "...that is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus sin spread to all men because they had all sinned"
now when adam and eve sinned, we all became imperfect, in that we all sinned and the only way we atoned for a sins was to make a burnt offering to god. now the reason jesus dies was to buy back what adam lost = perfect life, which meant that we werent perfect again, it meant that we no longer had to offer animal sacrifices for our sins.
the 10 commandments were replaced with just to commandments
1) Matthews 22:37-39 " You must love Jehovah your god with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. the second, like it, is this love must love your neighbour as yourself."
this is because in 1 peter 4:8 " above all things, have intense love for one another because love covers a multitude of sins."
there are no contradictions in the bible, just misconceptions about it.
1000 years are but 1 day in the eyes of god......thats a long time.....lolz
the book of revelation otherwise known as the apocolypse is prophecy in symbolic means. it will use symbolic items, angels, animals to describe the prohpecies in revelation.
well.....Jesus is now ruling.....actually hes been ruling ever since 1914....and things have been getting worse because in revelation 12:12 "on this account, be glad you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe, for the earth and for the sea, because the devil has come down to you having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time."
we learn that 1,260 days are equal to “a time [that is, 1 time] and times [that is, 2 times] and half a time,†or a total of 3 1â„2 times. So “a time†would be equal to 360 days. “Seven times†would be 360 multiplied by 7, or 2,520 days. Now if we count a day for a year, according to a Bible rule, the “seven times†equal 2,520 years. (Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6) Therefore, the duration of the “seven times,†the Gentile Times, is from 607 B.C.E. to 1914 C.E.
romans 5:12 "...that is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus sin spread to all men because they had all sinned"
now when adam and eve sinned, we all became imperfect, in that we all sinned and the only way we atoned for a sins was to make a burnt offering to god. now the reason jesus dies was to buy back what adam lost = perfect life, which meant that we werent perfect again, it meant that we no longer had to offer animal sacrifices for our sins.
the 10 commandments were replaced with just to commandments
1) Matthews 22:37-39 " You must love Jehovah your god with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. the second, like it, is this love must love your neighbour as yourself."
this is because in 1 peter 4:8 " above all things, have intense love for one another because love covers a multitude of sins."
there are no contradictions in the bible, just misconceptions about it.
1000 years are but 1 day in the eyes of god......thats a long time.....lolz
the book of revelation otherwise known as the apocolypse is prophecy in symbolic means. it will use symbolic items, angels, animals to describe the prohpecies in revelation.
well.....Jesus is now ruling.....actually hes been ruling ever since 1914....and things have been getting worse because in revelation 12:12 "on this account, be glad you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe, for the earth and for the sea, because the devil has come down to you having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time."
we learn that 1,260 days are equal to “a time [that is, 1 time] and times [that is, 2 times] and half a time,†or a total of 3 1â„2 times. So “a time†would be equal to 360 days. “Seven times†would be 360 multiplied by 7, or 2,520 days. Now if we count a day for a year, according to a Bible rule, the “seven times†equal 2,520 years. (Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6) Therefore, the duration of the “seven times,†the Gentile Times, is from 607 B.C.E. to 1914 C.E.
So, I just want to clarify that I have not created this in spite of anyone or in any anger.
Upon my recent departure from the Islam Thread, I began thinking about a few things. For starters I know there is already a Christianity thread..but it is used for other purposes in my opinion..
As I left the Islam thread..I also asked.. why does Islam have to be the center of everyones bashing? Note that there is a difference between a debate and an argument. Its been a while since Ive had to say this but if I am correct, a debate attacks only a persons ideas or thoughts while an argument attacks a person as a whole.
A hobby of mine is actually having discussions or debates with others about religion. One I could never understand was Christianity.. Its concept..doesnt really make sense to me..
How can Jesus be god AND the son of god.. I dont understand.. its all contradictory.. And again..I am not doing this to offend anyone..only to further expand my knowledge of the religion. I have heard from some who have tried to explain though..that, "Oh, its complicated.. you have to be a believer of the faith and practice it in order to truly understand it".. Well I agree with that for the most part... We can have an overview or outlined understanding.. But like I said in the Islam thread.. the COMPLETELY understand a religion..you have to practice it..and realize and truly understand its spiritual meaning which is almost impossible to do from an external standpoint..
Now I ask that we keep everything strictly along the basis of Christianity.. I dont want any talk of other religions or anything said in other threads (as I just did..and I apologize).
So anyone have an answer to my questions and would like to start a FRIENDLY discussion? (I have outlined a specific question and/or topic for this thread. I only say this because I have had a thread locked because a Mod informed me there wasnt an outlined question or argument.. well.. I have already outlined one.. TY
)
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Edit: Also, pertaining to the other question, the concept of the Trinity is..well..it really doesnt make sense.. And I mean.. Jesus being the son of god and god..its all very flawed. (Id like to once more say.. that I have no intention of offending anyone..I simply am trying to expand my knowledge of the religion and have friendly discussions along the way.. So I apologize in advance if what I have said offended you..
Upon my recent departure from the Islam Thread, I began thinking about a few things. For starters I know there is already a Christianity thread..but it is used for other purposes in my opinion..
As I left the Islam thread..I also asked.. why does Islam have to be the center of everyones bashing? Note that there is a difference between a debate and an argument. Its been a while since Ive had to say this but if I am correct, a debate attacks only a persons ideas or thoughts while an argument attacks a person as a whole.
A hobby of mine is actually having discussions or debates with others about religion. One I could never understand was Christianity.. Its concept..doesnt really make sense to me..
How can Jesus be god AND the son of god.. I dont understand.. its all contradictory.. And again..I am not doing this to offend anyone..only to further expand my knowledge of the religion. I have heard from some who have tried to explain though..that, "Oh, its complicated.. you have to be a believer of the faith and practice it in order to truly understand it".. Well I agree with that for the most part... We can have an overview or outlined understanding.. But like I said in the Islam thread.. the COMPLETELY understand a religion..you have to practice it..and realize and truly understand its spiritual meaning which is almost impossible to do from an external standpoint..
Now I ask that we keep everything strictly along the basis of Christianity.. I dont want any talk of other religions or anything said in other threads (as I just did..and I apologize).
So anyone have an answer to my questions and would like to start a FRIENDLY discussion? (I have outlined a specific question and/or topic for this thread. I only say this because I have had a thread locked because a Mod informed me there wasnt an outlined question or argument.. well.. I have already outlined one.. TY
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Edit: Also, pertaining to the other question, the concept of the Trinity is..well..it really doesnt make sense.. And I mean.. Jesus being the son of god and god..its all very flawed. (Id like to once more say.. that I have no intention of offending anyone..I simply am trying to expand my knowledge of the religion and have friendly discussions along the way.. So I apologize in advance if what I have said offended you..
Foreword : There's three main branchs of Christianism (Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant) and some smaller ones (Mormons...), with some significant differences (about the Virgin Mary, the transubstantiation, the place of the Bible etc).
I'll speak mainly about the RCC, because it's the one I know the best.
QUOTE
How can Jesus be god AND the son of god.. I dont understand.. its all contradictory..
The Blessed Trinity !
It's based on the Athanasian Creed, which states that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God.
It's defined as a mystery, therefore it's something you can't fully understand intellectually. So no wonder you can't grasp it, it's working as intended.
I add a little extract from the Catholic Encyclopedia on the mystery of the Trinity:
QUOTE It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains "hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness" (Constitution, "De fide. cath.", iv). In other words, our understanding of it remains only partial, even after we have accepted it as part of the Divine message. Through analogies and types we can form a representative concept expressive of what is revealed, but we cannot attain that fuller knowledge which supposes that the various elements of the concept are clearly grasped and their reciprocal compatibility manifest.
I'll speak mainly about the RCC, because it's the one I know the best.
QUOTE
How can Jesus be god AND the son of god.. I dont understand.. its all contradictory..
The Blessed Trinity !
It's based on the Athanasian Creed, which states that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God.
It's defined as a mystery, therefore it's something you can't fully understand intellectually. So no wonder you can't grasp it, it's working as intended.
I add a little extract from the Catholic Encyclopedia on the mystery of the Trinity:
QUOTE It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains "hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness" (Constitution, "De fide. cath.", iv). In other words, our understanding of it remains only partial, even after we have accepted it as part of the Divine message. Through analogies and types we can form a representative concept expressive of what is revealed, but we cannot attain that fuller knowledge which supposes that the various elements of the concept are clearly grasped and their reciprocal compatibility manifest.
I know you wanted a christian perspective on the matter, so just ignore my comment if it doesn't explain anything.
It's hard to imagine that Jesus could be the son of God and be God at the same time. This might be due to our tendancy to think of individuals as one person only. It's a rational stance to take, considering it's what we've experienced most of our lives. We are ourselves, our own consciousness. This statement assumes that we aren't just biological matter that came from chance.
Now the alternative way of thinking is that God is within Jesus, their shared consciousness means that efffectively they are son of God and God.
Moving off-topic for a second here. There are some people who even practice the view that we're all part of something (God?) and that essentially everybody else is them, and they themselves is everybody else. Collective consciousness.
It's hard to imagine that Jesus could be the son of God and be God at the same time. This might be due to our tendancy to think of individuals as one person only. It's a rational stance to take, considering it's what we've experienced most of our lives. We are ourselves, our own consciousness. This statement assumes that we aren't just biological matter that came from chance.
Now the alternative way of thinking is that God is within Jesus, their shared consciousness means that efffectively they are son of God and God.
Moving off-topic for a second here. There are some people who even practice the view that we're all part of something (God?) and that essentially everybody else is them, and they themselves is everybody else. Collective consciousness.
QUOTE
Now the alternative way of thinking is that God is within Jesus, their shared consciousness means that efffectively they are son of God and God.
A common, although still flawed, analogy for the trinity is how liquid water, ice and water vapour are all water, but under different aspects.
QUOTE
Moving off-topic for a second here. There are some people who even practice the view that we're all part of something (God?) and that essentially everybody else is them, and they themselves is everybody else. Collective consciousness.Â
Not among the main Christian branchs, as far as I know.
EDIT :
QUOTE Still Why do you feel that the analogy is flawed? I thought it was rather good.
It's indeed rather good, but not exact (there's a lot of talk about this problem in the catholic theology, and I wouldn't understand half of it anyway). Hence my opinion that it's flawed.
Now the alternative way of thinking is that God is within Jesus, their shared consciousness means that efffectively they are son of God and God.
A common, although still flawed, analogy for the trinity is how liquid water, ice and water vapour are all water, but under different aspects.
QUOTE
Moving off-topic for a second here. There are some people who even practice the view that we're all part of something (God?) and that essentially everybody else is them, and they themselves is everybody else. Collective consciousness.Â
Not among the main Christian branchs, as far as I know.
EDIT :
QUOTE Still Why do you feel that the analogy is flawed? I thought it was rather good.
It's indeed rather good, but not exact (there's a lot of talk about this problem in the catholic theology, and I wouldn't understand half of it anyway). Hence my opinion that it's flawed.
QUOTE (Dalriada @ Sep 12 2008, 07:00 AM) A common, although still flawed, analogy for the trinity is how liquid water, ice and water vapour are all water, but under different aspects.
Not among the main Christian branchs, as far as I know.
Indeed. Hence my first comment about how the OP should ignore my comment since it's not coming from a christian perspective. Still Why do you feel that the analogy is flawed? I thought it was rather good.
Not among the main Christian branchs, as far as I know.
Indeed. Hence my first comment about how the OP should ignore my comment since it's not coming from a christian perspective. Still Why do you feel that the analogy is flawed? I thought it was rather good.
QUOTE (Sanity Panda)I know you wanted a christian perspective on the matter, so just ignore my comment if it doesn't explain anything.
NO!
This thread is for EVERYONE. NOT just Christians.. you said what exactly it was that you thought.. and I respect you for posting. Anyone can answer..Christian or not.. I mean Im not Christian..
So dont worry.. your as welcome here as Dalriada is and all other FTV members!
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QUOTE (Dalriada)The Blessed Trinity !
It's based on the Athanasian Creed, which states that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God.
Earlier I said that I debate alot in school. From one girl I heard that when Jesus was on the cross he yelled out..or said.. i dont know which.. something like, "Oh God. Why hast thou foresaken me?" Somewhere along those lines.. Well..so he is god..and the son of god.. So hes talking to himself? I mean, again..no offense to any Christians, its completely contradictory! And also..God is a Divine Being.. In my religion we believe God is nothing like man..He exists without the need or use of a physical state...Nothing like man being..He has no body parts like those of man..He is Holy and Divine. Your probably wondering why I added this..but Im pretty sure there are Christians who believe this too.. And because God is as what I mentioned earlier.. then he God.. can not physically have children..I mean.. God had put a seed into the Virgin Mary and allowed it to fertilize and grow.. Mary had no sexual contact prior to Jesus birth ( Obviously why shes the VIRGIN Mary..xD) But saying that Jesus is the son of God.. Is blasphemous.. I mean..it doesnt make sense.. It can't make sense.. I know some of you are saying, "Oh.. then what about your precious Allah.. You just said he exists without a physical being and blah blah blah.. then that doesnt make sense to me. How do you know Allah's even real then?" Well.. it doesnt make sense to you..and even as a Muslim.. to me, it is a puzzle that can not be solved. And really a puzzle to many Muslims.. But as a Muslim.. we can not ask. how it is possible and what it is like and etc.. Because seeing isnt believeing.. Its faith that keeps me worshiping my God and believing and KNOWING God is there (of course not in a physical "there" as God does not occupy "space" as we do).. and Astagfurallah Hul Azeem if I have said anything incorrect about my religion or made a blasphemous comment..
Now your asking, "WTF WAS ALL THAT FOR?!" Well, I was trying to make a point in turn that in turn maybe its all left to faith... Seeing isnt Believing..
But then again.. I see it that what I explained still seems to make more sense than a "trinity" and god and the son of god being one... And again.. Im sorry if any of you feel offended by my words.. Also I do not mean to try and compare religions.. And if anyones offended Im sorry.. Because even in my religion.. telling someone that my religion is better than theirs is haraam. So I wouldnt do that. But the trinity doesnt make sense.. AT ALL..(to me)
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That leads me somewhere else.. I do not know if all Christians are like this.. and I do not mean to stereotype all Christians just because all Christians(that I know) are like this.. But alot of Christians I know seem to feel the need to tell everyone whether or not they are going to hell.. My Ex Girlfriend and I broke up because I was Muslim (I know its against Islam..but at least I refrained from kissing her and holding hands..so I gave up alot)... I dont know why but Christians seem to believe they are better than everyone else. No one really has the right to say who will and will not go to hell.. Because that is Gods decision.. I mean.. Islam..we are not allowed to tell someone that are going to hell or claim superiority over their religion because only God can decide who will and will not be sent to hell.. Well, then why do Christians feel the need to tell someone if they are going to hell. I mean, once an Atheist friend of mine told me she was speaking with a few friends of ours that were Christian. And suddenly religion came up and they felt the need to say, "Oh hey Kat (atheist friend), you're going to hell cause your not Christian and you dont believe in god.." How I even got into the conversation is a mystery to me.. but my ex girlfriend happened to be one of these Christians. The next day Kat tells me how my ex and a few other people we know..we're saying how shes going to hell and how I am as well. Well I didnt believe it..but when I confronted my ex and asked her about it..her response was, "Oh yeah..you're going to hell cause your Muslim." So why did I tell you this boring story?.. To show you what exactly it is that I am talking about.. I mean her bedroom (my ex) is full of books on how to convert someone from every religion to Christianity.. I mean.. it looked to me was that Christianity preaches superiority of its beliefs and practices over other religions.
It may seem like I've written alot of useless info.. but in my opinion.. I really havent.. In order to properly express what I am saying.. I believe all of my observations need to come out and be seen/heard/read.
And again.. I do not mean to sterotype all Christians..
But if I do ask a Christian if they believe Im going to hell..some take a less direct approach..Instead of flat out saying yes your going to hell..like me ex.. Ive heard other say, "I believe if you realize and understand Christ and the trinity and realize Christ as God." (Astagfurallah Hul Azeem).. To me it does seem like Christians are taking the matter of whos going to hell or not into their own hands.. So please someone.. feel free to tell me whats up the Christian mindset.. Do they just think they are better than everyone or what?
Once more.. I have no intention of belittling anyone or their beliefs.. so if you have become extremely offended.. rather than trying to post something that will simply add spam to the thread..or try to bash me for what I have said..then please.. dont even bother posting...do both you and me a favor..and keep the thoughtful section friendly!
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EDIT:
QUOTE (Noshi @ Sep 12 2008, 11:15 AM)I merged both christianity topics, it'll be a general thread from now on, questions/discussions/etc go here. Thank you
Ah, dude.. you freaked me out.. I was like, "OMG! WHERED MY THREAD GO!"
NO!
So dont worry.. your as welcome here as Dalriada is and all other FTV members!
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QUOTE (Dalriada)The Blessed Trinity !
It's based on the Athanasian Creed, which states that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God.
Earlier I said that I debate alot in school. From one girl I heard that when Jesus was on the cross he yelled out..or said.. i dont know which.. something like, "Oh God. Why hast thou foresaken me?" Somewhere along those lines.. Well..so he is god..and the son of god.. So hes talking to himself? I mean, again..no offense to any Christians, its completely contradictory! And also..God is a Divine Being.. In my religion we believe God is nothing like man..He exists without the need or use of a physical state...Nothing like man being..He has no body parts like those of man..He is Holy and Divine. Your probably wondering why I added this..but Im pretty sure there are Christians who believe this too.. And because God is as what I mentioned earlier.. then he God.. can not physically have children..I mean.. God had put a seed into the Virgin Mary and allowed it to fertilize and grow.. Mary had no sexual contact prior to Jesus birth ( Obviously why shes the VIRGIN Mary..xD) But saying that Jesus is the son of God.. Is blasphemous.. I mean..it doesnt make sense.. It can't make sense.. I know some of you are saying, "Oh.. then what about your precious Allah.. You just said he exists without a physical being and blah blah blah.. then that doesnt make sense to me. How do you know Allah's even real then?" Well.. it doesnt make sense to you..and even as a Muslim.. to me, it is a puzzle that can not be solved. And really a puzzle to many Muslims.. But as a Muslim.. we can not ask. how it is possible and what it is like and etc.. Because seeing isnt believeing.. Its faith that keeps me worshiping my God and believing and KNOWING God is there (of course not in a physical "there" as God does not occupy "space" as we do).. and Astagfurallah Hul Azeem if I have said anything incorrect about my religion or made a blasphemous comment..
Now your asking, "WTF WAS ALL THAT FOR?!" Well, I was trying to make a point in turn that in turn maybe its all left to faith... Seeing isnt Believing..
But then again.. I see it that what I explained still seems to make more sense than a "trinity" and god and the son of god being one... And again.. Im sorry if any of you feel offended by my words.. Also I do not mean to try and compare religions.. And if anyones offended Im sorry.. Because even in my religion.. telling someone that my religion is better than theirs is haraam. So I wouldnt do that. But the trinity doesnt make sense.. AT ALL..(to me)
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That leads me somewhere else.. I do not know if all Christians are like this.. and I do not mean to stereotype all Christians just because all Christians(that I know) are like this.. But alot of Christians I know seem to feel the need to tell everyone whether or not they are going to hell.. My Ex Girlfriend and I broke up because I was Muslim (I know its against Islam..but at least I refrained from kissing her and holding hands..so I gave up alot)... I dont know why but Christians seem to believe they are better than everyone else. No one really has the right to say who will and will not go to hell.. Because that is Gods decision.. I mean.. Islam..we are not allowed to tell someone that are going to hell or claim superiority over their religion because only God can decide who will and will not be sent to hell.. Well, then why do Christians feel the need to tell someone if they are going to hell. I mean, once an Atheist friend of mine told me she was speaking with a few friends of ours that were Christian. And suddenly religion came up and they felt the need to say, "Oh hey Kat (atheist friend), you're going to hell cause your not Christian and you dont believe in god.." How I even got into the conversation is a mystery to me.. but my ex girlfriend happened to be one of these Christians. The next day Kat tells me how my ex and a few other people we know..we're saying how shes going to hell and how I am as well. Well I didnt believe it..but when I confronted my ex and asked her about it..her response was, "Oh yeah..you're going to hell cause your Muslim." So why did I tell you this boring story?.. To show you what exactly it is that I am talking about.. I mean her bedroom (my ex) is full of books on how to convert someone from every religion to Christianity.. I mean.. it looked to me was that Christianity preaches superiority of its beliefs and practices over other religions.
It may seem like I've written alot of useless info.. but in my opinion.. I really havent.. In order to properly express what I am saying.. I believe all of my observations need to come out and be seen/heard/read.
And again.. I do not mean to sterotype all Christians..
Once more.. I have no intention of belittling anyone or their beliefs.. so if you have become extremely offended.. rather than trying to post something that will simply add spam to the thread..or try to bash me for what I have said..then please.. dont even bother posting...do both you and me a favor..and keep the thoughtful section friendly!
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EDIT:
QUOTE (Noshi @ Sep 12 2008, 11:15 AM)I merged both christianity topics, it'll be a general thread from now on, questions/discussions/etc go here. Thank you
Ah, dude.. you freaked me out.. I was like, "OMG! WHERED MY THREAD GO!"
QUOTE And because God is as what I mentioned earlier.. then he God.. can not physically have children..I mean.. God had put a seed into the Virgin Mary and allowed it to fertilize and grow.. Mary had no sexual contact prior to Jesus birth ( Obviously why shes the VIRGIN Mary..xD) But saying that Jesus is the son of God.. Is blasphemous.. I mean..it doesnt make sense.. It can't make sense..
Catholicism relies a lot on miracles for those kind of stuff (IIRC, the change of the bread and the wine into the Body and the Blood of the Lord is also a miracle. And it's happening every sunday).
Of course it doesn't make sense, if we try to use logic or science. It wouldn't be a religion if it did.
QUOTE
That leads me somewhere else.. I do not know if all Christians are like this.. and I do not mean to stereotype all Christians just because all Christians(that I know) are like this.. But alot of Christians I know seem to feel the need to tell everyone whether or not they are going to hell..
I live in a mainly Catholic country (although not a very religious one) and I've never heard someone say that (Christian, muslim, jew or something else). Some of them may have thought it, but were polite enough to shut up.
But I have encounter christians and muslims claiming the superiority of their religions. I guess I'm fine with it (they're thinking their religions are the right one), as long as they're not jerks trying to impose rules based on it.
Besides, I'm quite sure the beliefs about Hell is quite diversified among the Christendom (Some even saying that Hell exists, but is empty. No even speaking about the existence or not of the Purgatory).
And I quite certain that no one but God can say who'll go or won't go in Even (citation needed, but I can't find one now).
QUOTE (I know its against Islam..but at least I refrained from kissing her and holding hands..so I gave up alot)...
I'm not a scholar, but doesn't the sura 5, verse 5 of the Qu'ran (
) says otherwise ? (true question)
QUOTE
It may seem like I've written alot of useless info..
It's not useless per se, but you're lacking some conciseness, really.
QUOTE But if I do ask a Christian if they believe Im going to hell..some take a less direct approach..Instead of flat out saying yes your going to hell..like me ex.. Ive heard other say, "I believe if you realize and understand Christ and the trinity and realize Christ as God." (Astagfurallah Hul Azeem)..
It's hard to tell, since there's some major differences between the catholic and the protestant view of salvation (And I'm not at ease debating about that, because of the lack of knowledge. The RCC is not only based on the Bible, but also on the Tradition, i.e. the work of all the catholic theologians, so it's pretty hard to grasp some notions without studying it).
Catholicism relies a lot on miracles for those kind of stuff (IIRC, the change of the bread and the wine into the Body and the Blood of the Lord is also a miracle. And it's happening every sunday).
Of course it doesn't make sense, if we try to use logic or science. It wouldn't be a religion if it did.
QUOTE
That leads me somewhere else.. I do not know if all Christians are like this.. and I do not mean to stereotype all Christians just because all Christians(that I know) are like this.. But alot of Christians I know seem to feel the need to tell everyone whether or not they are going to hell..
I live in a mainly Catholic country (although not a very religious one) and I've never heard someone say that (Christian, muslim, jew or something else). Some of them may have thought it, but were polite enough to shut up.
But I have encounter christians and muslims claiming the superiority of their religions. I guess I'm fine with it (they're thinking their religions are the right one), as long as they're not jerks trying to impose rules based on it.
Besides, I'm quite sure the beliefs about Hell is quite diversified among the Christendom (Some even saying that Hell exists, but is empty. No even speaking about the existence or not of the Purgatory).
And I quite certain that no one but God can say who'll go or won't go in Even (citation needed, but I can't find one now).
QUOTE (I know its against Islam..but at least I refrained from kissing her and holding hands..so I gave up alot)...
I'm not a scholar, but doesn't the sura 5, verse 5 of the Qu'ran (
QUOTE
It may seem like I've written alot of useless info..
It's not useless per se, but you're lacking some conciseness, really.
QUOTE But if I do ask a Christian if they believe Im going to hell..some take a less direct approach..Instead of flat out saying yes your going to hell..like me ex.. Ive heard other say, "I believe if you realize and understand Christ and the trinity and realize Christ as God." (Astagfurallah Hul Azeem)..
It's hard to tell, since there's some major differences between the catholic and the protestant view of salvation (And I'm not at ease debating about that, because of the lack of knowledge. The RCC is not only based on the Bible, but also on the Tradition, i.e. the work of all the catholic theologians, so it's pretty hard to grasp some notions without studying it).
QUOTE (Dalriada)Catholicism relies a lot on miracles for those kind of stuff (IIRC, the change of the bread and the wine into the Body and the Blood of the Lord is also a miracle. And it's happening every sunday).
IIRC? Im lost.. is this..some sort of ritual? @.@.. I dont have alot of information on this particular subject... I never was really interested on the differences and blah blah blah.. But I should probably read the first few pages cause i know it tells about the different "sects" .. xP But even that.. the blod wine bread thing.. is giving me a migraine!
QUOTE (Dalriada)Of course it doesn't make sense, if we try to use logic or science. It wouldn't be a religion if it did.
Lol. Yes yes yes. Science and religion dont mix well... I know back in the day, the Theory of Evolution started soo many problems..and an unbelievable amount of people are still discussing its blasphemous nature today.. I mean I dont believe in it..because really the theory of evolution goes against religious theologies.. Adam and Eve exactly.. But thats a different debate.. maybe I should start a new thread for it if there isnt already one..xP
QUOTE (Dalriada)I live in a mainly Catholic country (although not a very religious one) and I've never heard someone say that (Christian, muslim, jew or something else). Some of them may have thought it, but were polite enough to shut up.
But I have encounter christians and muslims claiming the superiority of their religions. I guess I'm fine with it (they're thinking their religions are the right one), as long as they're not jerks trying to impose rules based on it.
Besides, I'm quite sure the beliefs about Hell is quite diversified among the Christendom (Some even saying that Hell exists, but is empty. No even speaking about the existence or not of the Purgatory).
And I quite certain that no one but God can say who'll go or won't go in Even (citation needed, but I can't find one now).
Oh, no. Ive even heard Muslims say to others sometimes how non Muslims are going to hell and blah blah blah.. Its probably gonna be a problem thats never gonna change.. Also..sorry if I sounded like I was saying that only christians preach superiority.. and preach isnt even the right word.. uum.. I like your word..claiming.. xP As you said BOTH Muslims and Christians claim superiority.. Of course not all Muslims and Christians.. but.. there are always gonna be a bunch that do..
Hmm.. actually I've never heard about the empty hell theory..
QUOTE (Dalriada)
I'm not a scholar, but doesn't the sura 5, verse 5 of the Qu'ran (wink.gif) says otherwise ? (true question)
Uum.. I got lost... What do you mean? I have an idea of what your trying to say.. but Id rather wait to see your explanation.. I mean.. dating.. is usually a topic Muslims dont go into.. unless one is trying to say how the other is bad for dating and one is trying to justify themselves or something.. So please do explain..
QUOTE (Dalriada)
It's not useless per se, but you're lacking some conciseness, really. smile.gif
O.O Dude.. Not cool.. I cant believe youd say that.. Ugh.. I hate you!
xD J/k. No I dont hate you.
And ya..maybe I should have summarized it.. xP
IIRC? Im lost.. is this..some sort of ritual? @.@.. I dont have alot of information on this particular subject... I never was really interested on the differences and blah blah blah.. But I should probably read the first few pages cause i know it tells about the different "sects" .. xP But even that.. the blod wine bread thing.. is giving me a migraine!
QUOTE (Dalriada)Of course it doesn't make sense, if we try to use logic or science. It wouldn't be a religion if it did.
Lol. Yes yes yes. Science and religion dont mix well... I know back in the day, the Theory of Evolution started soo many problems..and an unbelievable amount of people are still discussing its blasphemous nature today.. I mean I dont believe in it..because really the theory of evolution goes against religious theologies.. Adam and Eve exactly.. But thats a different debate.. maybe I should start a new thread for it if there isnt already one..xP
QUOTE (Dalriada)I live in a mainly Catholic country (although not a very religious one) and I've never heard someone say that (Christian, muslim, jew or something else). Some of them may have thought it, but were polite enough to shut up.
But I have encounter christians and muslims claiming the superiority of their religions. I guess I'm fine with it (they're thinking their religions are the right one), as long as they're not jerks trying to impose rules based on it.
Besides, I'm quite sure the beliefs about Hell is quite diversified among the Christendom (Some even saying that Hell exists, but is empty. No even speaking about the existence or not of the Purgatory).
And I quite certain that no one but God can say who'll go or won't go in Even (citation needed, but I can't find one now).
Oh, no. Ive even heard Muslims say to others sometimes how non Muslims are going to hell and blah blah blah.. Its probably gonna be a problem thats never gonna change.. Also..sorry if I sounded like I was saying that only christians preach superiority.. and preach isnt even the right word.. uum.. I like your word..claiming.. xP As you said BOTH Muslims and Christians claim superiority.. Of course not all Muslims and Christians.. but.. there are always gonna be a bunch that do..
Hmm.. actually I've never heard about the empty hell theory..
QUOTE (Dalriada)
I'm not a scholar, but doesn't the sura 5, verse 5 of the Qu'ran (wink.gif) says otherwise ? (true question)
Uum.. I got lost... What do you mean? I have an idea of what your trying to say.. but Id rather wait to see your explanation.. I mean.. dating.. is usually a topic Muslims dont go into.. unless one is trying to say how the other is bad for dating and one is trying to justify themselves or something.. So please do explain..
QUOTE (Dalriada)
It's not useless per se, but you're lacking some conciseness, really. smile.gif
O.O Dude.. Not cool.. I cant believe youd say that.. Ugh.. I hate you!
xD J/k. No I dont hate you.
QUOTE
IIRC? Im lost.. is this..some sort of ritual?
But even that.. the blod wine bread thing.. is giving me a migraine!
Communion is something practiced by many Christians as far as I know, just the frequency changes. Catholics tend to take Communion every week, while the Protestants I know of take it about four times a year. It's symbolic of the Last Super Christ had with his disciples, where he broke bread and said "this is my body given to you" and then gave them wine saying "this is my blood split for you" (paraphrasing from memory here, don't quote me). It's basically recognition of your personal sin, and accepting that Christ died for you, and the bread and wine served are (suppose to be perceived as) the flesh and blood of Christ. I know in some churches, children are not allowed to take communion until they've grown up and personally accepted Christ into their lives. Not sure how the act is practiced in general though (and I don't know much about Catholicism).
IIRC? Im lost.. is this..some sort of ritual?
But even that.. the blod wine bread thing.. is giving me a migraine!
Communion is something practiced by many Christians as far as I know, just the frequency changes. Catholics tend to take Communion every week, while the Protestants I know of take it about four times a year. It's symbolic of the Last Super Christ had with his disciples, where he broke bread and said "this is my body given to you" and then gave them wine saying "this is my blood split for you" (paraphrasing from memory here, don't quote me). It's basically recognition of your personal sin, and accepting that Christ died for you, and the bread and wine served are (suppose to be perceived as) the flesh and blood of Christ. I know in some churches, children are not allowed to take communion until they've grown up and personally accepted Christ into their lives. Not sure how the act is practiced in general though (and I don't know much about Catholicism).
QUOTE
Communion is something practiced by many Christians as far as I know, just the frequency changes. Catholics tend to take Communion every week, while the Protestants I know of take it about four times a year. It's symbolic of the Last Super Christ had with his disciples, where he broke bread and said "this is my body given to you" and then gave them wine saying "this is my blood split for you" (paraphrasing from memory here, don't quote me).
I think the communion is mainly symbolic in the protestant churches, while in the catholic church there's a real presence of the Christ in the bread and the wine (i.e. It's really the Body and the Blood).
QUOTE
I know in some churches, children are not allowed to take communion until they've grown up and personally accepted Christ into their lives. Not sure how the act is practiced in general though (and I don't know much about Catholicism).
Catholics are indeed not supposed to receive the communion before their First Communion (sounds logical, doesn't it ?
), often around ten.
Communion is something practiced by many Christians as far as I know, just the frequency changes. Catholics tend to take Communion every week, while the Protestants I know of take it about four times a year. It's symbolic of the Last Super Christ had with his disciples, where he broke bread and said "this is my body given to you" and then gave them wine saying "this is my blood split for you" (paraphrasing from memory here, don't quote me).
I think the communion is mainly symbolic in the protestant churches, while in the catholic church there's a real presence of the Christ in the bread and the wine (i.e. It's really the Body and the Blood).
QUOTE
I know in some churches, children are not allowed to take communion until they've grown up and personally accepted Christ into their lives. Not sure how the act is practiced in general though (and I don't know much about Catholicism).
Catholics are indeed not supposed to receive the communion before their First Communion (sounds logical, doesn't it ?
