Death Sentence, A Terminal Solution

[Dalriada]

QUOTE Only difference is the criminal isn't killed.

But it's a huge difference.

I agree with your analysis of prison without parole. But let's not forget that even the possibility of parole doesn't mean that every convict will be paroled.


QUOTE
Now the moral cost maybe lower but the economic cost will be greater.

I don't think the money required to feed and clean a prisoner is incredibly high (euphemism).
Let's not forget that we're not talking about the whole population of prisoner, but... There's a bit more than 3k people in the US, so it would make a few hundreds in the UK or in France if we were as bloodthirsty. Really not expensive.


QUOTE
So there could be a economical reason to revert back to capital punishment.


And to slavery.
And to colonisation.
And to child work.

QUOTE
Furthermore if all people served full life sentences you would suffer more problems with overcrowded prisons (I believe many prisons are stretched as it is).

Overcrowded prisons is an accute problem.
However, killing the few hundred I was speaking earlier wouldn't really make a lot of differences. Some laws and actions (like, in the US, the war on drugs or the three strikes law) and the lack of alternative solutions and re-integration are the guilty ones here.

 

[monsta666]

QUOTE (Dalriada @ Jun 12 2008, 05:10 PM)I agree with your analysis of prison without parole. But let's not forget that even the possibility of parole doesn't mean that every convict will be paroled.
Agreed. Not all prisoners will be granted parole. Prisoners are assessed and only the ones who pose a minimal risk to society are released. For that reason not all prisoners will be released on parole when given the chance.

Saying that nearly all prisoners who serve life sentences get the chance of parole. Taking Home Office figures the number of people in Britain serving life sentences is 10,911 (statistics are at the bottom). Of those 28 serve sentences without a chance of parole (click link to PDF file). With such figures it easy to see that the system may make the wrong assessment.

The figures maybe higher in other countries (particularly America) but I think the UK has a high prison population (for a EU nation). So it is likely the figures for France and other EU countries are lower.



QUOTE (Dalriada)I don't think the money required to feed and clean a prisoner is incredibly high (euphemism).
If memory serves it's about £38,000 per year per prisoner (that's €50,000 or 315,000 Francs).

Silly me these must be figures for Northern Ireland!


QUOTE (Dalriada)And to slavery.
And to colonisation.
And to child work.

Unlike the examples you mention bringing back capital punishment does not go against human rights!

 

[Dalriada]

QUOTE
Unlike the examples you mention bringing back capital punishment does not go against human rights!

Here, we disagree. Strongly (we can't prevent a person from practicing its religion, for example, but we could kill it ? Really ?)

And human rights... can be used in very creative ways. After all, colonisation was said to favour the colonized populations (the white man's burden...). And then some 'colonialists' would have said to be on the side of the humanists.
The debate is still alive today, with the notion of humanitarian intervention.

I'm sure I could find some other creative arguments in favour of slavery, child work or death penalty.

 

[monsta666]

QUOTE (Dalriada @ Jun 12 2008, 06:16 PM)Here, we disagree. Strongly (we can't prevent a person from practicing its religion, for example, but we could kill it ? Really ?)
Doesn't slavery go against article 4 of the human rights convention? As for child labour I would have thought it would come under forced labour. Which is also against human rights. Colonisation is more tricky but considering people thought the war in Iraq was an illegal one (what they say in Britain) I don't think the world would look too kindly to colonisation.

Killing a person goes against human rights but they make a exception for state endorsed murder (i.e capital punishment). So it doesn't break any human rights.

Off course human rights do not stop things like torture or slavery occurring but that is beside the point:

PS: If I'm wrong PM me!

Don't want to spam this thread on human rights issues!

 

[deathafterkarma]

Ok Heres what I think..

I come from maryland.. And the Crime rate is Really bad in maryland..
Homicide death toll was over 300 people for last year alone..

Most convicted of death don't see it until 10 or more years later..(waste of tax money)
Texas is putting in a express way for death row..

Now What I was thinking.. You could abolish the death penalty..
Now lets just think if I were to kill you.. just for example..
Spent the rest of my life in federal f**k me the a$$ prison..
I would get 3 meals a day a good place to rest.. and so on
But that doesn't bring people back to life now does it?
That doesn't help your family with the lost of a loved one..?

Now ask your self this..
If somebody came and killed someone you cared about... in a brutal fashion.. not accidental.
This is full blood homicide.. What would you do?

Heres another reason to still have death row..
The prisons in the US are.. if not.. are all almost hotel quality..
All our tax money goes into funding for this..

What we should do is focus on the prison..
Hotel.. quality.. HA i was thinking about more like the concentration camps the nazi's used..
All crimes are treated the same.. Food will be brought to you but not until every 4 days..
Don't worry you would have water..
It would make people think twice of committing a crime..
Thats the thing now a days people need to be scared into reality..

 

[Dalriada]

QUOTE
But that doesn't bring people back to life now does it?
That doesn't help your family with the lost of a loved one..?


Death penalty brings people back to life now ?
I knew science was advanced in the USA, but I didn't know it was so advanced.


QUOTE Now ask your self this..
If somebody came and killed someone you cared about... in a brutal fashion.. not accidental.
This is full blood homicide.. What would you do?

Now, ask yourself this : why 'justice' and 'vengeance' are two different words, with two very different etymologies ?


QUOTE Heres another reason to still have death row..
The prisons in the US are.. if not.. are all almost hotel quality..
All our tax money goes into funding for this..

Get a clue, please.


QUOTE
What we should do is focus on the prison..
Hotel.. quality.. HA i was thinking about more like the concentration camps the nazi's used..

Monsta, when I read someone advocating nazi-like concentration camp, can I attack the person and not the idea ?

 

[monsta666]

QUOTE (deathafterkarma @ Jun 13 2008, 08:57 AM)Most convicted of death don't see it until 10 or more years later..(waste of tax money)
Texas is putting in a express way for death row..
You need to be very sure the person your sentencing to death is the right person. It would be a tragedy if you killed an innocent person. The more speedy death row becomes the more prone to error the system will be.


QUOTE (deathafterkarma)But that doesn't bring people back to life now does it?
That doesn't help your family with the lost of a loved one..?
Neither does the death penalty. What helps a family get over the loss of a loved one is the feeling that justice has been served. This feeling of justice can vary from country to country. Some believe in the idea of an eye for an eye while others think time behind bars will suffice. In the end it has the same effect. It is also interesting to note that peoples' views on justice can also change.


QUOTE (deathafterkarma)Now ask your self this..
If somebody came and killed someone you cared about... in a brutal fashion.. not accidental.
This is full blood homicide.. What would you do?
It's difficult to say as I've never experienced such a scenario. Sure killing could be a very tempting option doesn't make it the action right however. In cases like this the murderer is obvious and it is likely they will quickly be proven guilty anyway. So there little need to kill. Other than to fufill an act of revenge. Unless I was acting in self defence the court will see it this way and I will be tried along side the killer.

The problem comes in cases where there is a suspected killer but no one is sure who it is. Reasons like this are why the justice system exists. People can analyse the situation in a detached manner and make decisions that are not clouded by emotion. Sometimes a neutral third party is necessary. Otherwise in our zeal to arrest somebody we can arrest the wrong person.


QUOTE (deathafterkarma)Here's another reason to still have death row..
The prisons in the US are.. if not.. are all almost hotel quality..
All our tax money goes into funding for this..
If funding prison cells becomes a problem then removing people from death row isn't the best answer. Far for more people go to jail due to the war on drugs, the three strike rules etc. Reduce those sentences and the prison population will drop dramatically saving the tax payer plenty of money.

QUOTE (deathafterkarma)Now What I was thinking.. You could abolish the death penalty..
Now lets just think if I were to kill you.. just for example..
Spent the rest of my life in federal f**k me the a$$ prison..
People who want to go into prison (it happens) don't kill to go in prison. They normally commit pity crimes and go in and out of jail. At least I've never heard of a case of people killing to enter jail. I remain sceptical as to whether the death penalty really deters people from committing murder. It is not supported by statistics.


QUOTE (deathafterkarma)What we should do is focus on the prison..
Hotel.. quality.. HA i was thinking about more like the concentration camps the nazi's used..
All crimes are treated the same.. Food will be brought to you but not until every 4 days..
Don't worry you would have water..
It would make people think twice of committing a crime..
Thats the thing now a days people need to be scared into reality..
Harsher punishments does not act as a good deterrent to crime. Take the death penalty, despite America using a harsher punishment than most first world countries (which do not practice capital punishment) the homicide rate is considerably higher. The problem in these scenarios is the criminal has a certain arrogance. It will never happen to me, I will never get caught etc. Then you have people who don't think about the consequences of their actions. Then there are others who simply have nothing to lose...

Education is a far better deterrent than stricter punishment (even if it sounds corny).

Oh and to concentration camps... No just no. What message would it send if the state started starving/torturing it's prisoners? Perhaps you could reduce the meals given per day but starving the prisoner is just not right.

One advantage of the death penalty is it provides ultimate protection to the family (the criminal will never harm anyone again). This comes at cost however as you deny the criminal the chance of redemption. With long prison sentences you sacrifice some safety for the chance for the criminal to reform. It's a difficult decision and all boils down to whether you value safety over mercy. Then again a lot of people advocating for the death penalty do so for reasons of revenge. I don't think anyone can deny that fact.

As American is essentially a Christian country perhaps it is wise to look to that for answers. My overall impression of the bible is that it puts acts of mercy and forgiveness ahead of revenge and killing. Look at John Pope II he went to the prison cell of his would be killer and forgave him for his sins.


QUOTE (Dalriada @ Jun 13 2008, 11:44 AM)Monsta, when I read someone advocating nazi-like concentration camp, can I attack the person and not the idea ?
A witty comment will suffice. Remember:
It's a good thing to add a touch of humour in serious messages, really

Sound familiar?

Can you think of a way of going against the opinion while being funny?

 

[khael]

QUOTE If memory serves it's about £38,000 per year per prisoner (that's 50,000 Euros or 315,000 Francs).

OMG, i knew it cost a lot but i never knew it cost THIS much in the UK. @@

QUOTE Here's another reason to still have death row..
The prisons in the US are.. if not.. are all almost hotel quality..
All our tax money goes into funding for this..
I don't think most US state prisons are of "hotel quality" per se. But i do know that a huge amount of money is spent on maintaining the facilities.
That is a good thing. Most of the high security prisons are meticulously designed to prevent the violence [e.g prison riots] from spreading throughout the entire facility. The prisons serve their job by being containers of violence, canned riots anyone? Anyway even though i believe this is good, that doesn't mean that i'm in favor of keeping high profile reoffenders alive. Gangs and drugs pester the American prison system and a lot of inmates ready to change their ways for the better most of the time get caught in the crossfire. Segragation is not enough for people of power in the criminal world. That is a subjective point of view.

QUOTE Neither does the death penalty. What helps a family get over the loss of a loved one is the feeling that justice has been served. This feeling of justice can vary from country to country. Some believe in the idea of an eye for an eye while others think time behind bars will suffice. In the end it has the same effect. It is also interesting to note that peoples' views on justice can also change.
Exactly, the sense of justice is highly subjective and relative and is bound to vary from person to person.

QUOTE A witty comment will suffice. Remember:
It's a good thing to add a touch of humour in serious messages,
I believe he already did.

QUOTE Death penalty brings people back to life now ?
I knew science was advanced in the USA, but I didn't know it was so advanced.
Thanks for making my day.

As for concentration camps and the death penalty i'm wondering. Which of the two is the greater evil? My money's on concentration camps but i'm not quite sure that the death sentence would be more humane either [It's "state endorsed murder"].

 

[Dalriada]

QUOTE
OMG, i knew it cost a lot but i never knew it cost THIS much in the UK. @@

In France, the budget of the penitentiary administration is 2.4 billions euro and there's 61 000 prisonners (Numbers).

So it makes 39 300€ per prisoners, a bit less than in the UK, but at least the UK is not singled out by the European Human Right Court.

But what's important is that we're speaking about the whole administration, not just about a prisoner. It includes all the paperwork, all the surveys, all the civil servants, all the security.
Because of the economy of scales, cutting the number of prisoners by half won't cut the budget by half, far from it. So a few hundreds of prisoners...

------------

QUOTE
Sound familiar? tongue.gif Can you think of a way of going against the opinion while being funny? rolleyes.gif

Being funny ? Sure I can !
But being nice (and by being nice, I mean not jumping at his throat) ? No, I can't.
I know he said that through stupidity rather than through malevolence, but I've some difficulties to have anything but the deepest contempt for this person (maybe because I've already visited a concentration camp, rather than learning history through videogames)

 

[monsta666]

QUOTE (khael @ Jun 13 2008, 02:28 PM)OMG, i knew it cost a lot but i never knew it cost THIS much in the UK. @@
Okay my head must of be playing tricks because the original cost is way too much!

By doing some digging the figure is closer to £25,000 (€32,000). Total cost £1.936 billion (€2.5 billion) (see page 3) from 80,000 prisoners (pick a link they're all the same).


QUOTE (khael)Exactly, the sense of justice is highly subjective and relative and is bound to vary from person to person.
Also peoples' perception of justice can change over time. For example in France people thought capital punishment was just. The practice was outlawed and within the space of 15 years people thought capital punishment was unjust. So you see legislation can force people to change their minds.


QUOTE (khael)As for concentration camps and the death penalty i'm wondering. Which of the two is the greater evil? My money's on concentration camps but i'm not quite sure that the death sentence would be more humane either [It's "state endorsed murder"].
Concentration camps are far worse. Prisoners were subjected to forced labour, torture, starvation and even human experimentation.

The way they were held was also substandard. So there is no comparison between the death penalty and concentration camps unless your are talking about the most gruesome way to kill someone.

QUOTE (Dalriada @ Jun 13 2008, 03:11 PM)Being funny ? Sure I can !
But being nice (and by being nice, I mean not jumping at his throat) ? No, I can't.
We all handle things differently.

A anecdote. In a cricket forum some people will say all English people are colonial racists. The first 20 times this annoyed me. After that I learnt to look at the funny side of it. The logic was so stupid it was funny. I advice the same to you. After all they say laughter is the best medicine!

 

[kazasou]

I agree on monsta666-dono. Death penalty cases deal a lot with misconvicts and the death penalty itself is very much inhumane. If I remember, there is a person who has an IQ under 80 that was convicted raping a child and is facing a death penalty sentence. I don't know whether the verdict has come out yet, but the death penalty tends to misconvict.

And I may say that death penalty is the not the right choice, but I can't ignore what the people thinks of homicides that can't be fix as if it was a hobby. Let's face it, most of the justice system that adopts prison system may not be effective to those repeated convicted murders and adding death penalty to them does not solve the problem as we tend to misconvict. A quite of dilemma I think.

Think we should adopt desertion?

 

[khael]

Well no system is 100% perfect. And no punishment is 100% guaranteed to eliminate crime. Prison is not fullproof, even death penalty isn't fullproof [considering the possibility of the convict actually being innocent]. Were do we go with this? The government decides based on the public's best interest. Remember, justice is relative and subjective and as added by monsta, dynamic even. So there isn't really a clear cut answer to it. So if the majority wants death, let them have it. If the majority wants life, let them have it. But this isn't how it always goes even.

 

[Patrick5087]

QUOTE (kazasou @ Jun 14 2008, 12:14 AM) I agree on monsta666-dono. Death penalty cases deal a lot with misconvicts and the death penalty itself is very much inhumane. If I remember, there is a person who has an IQ under 80 that was convicted raping a child and is facing a death penalty sentence. I don't know whether the verdict has come out yet, but the death penalty tends to misconvict.

And I may say that death penalty is the not the right choice, but I can't ignore what the people thinks of homicides that can't be fix as if it was a hobby. Let's face it, most of the justice system that adopts prison system may not be effective to those repeated convicted murders and adding death penalty to them does not solve the problem as we tend to misconvict. A quite of dilemma I think.

Think we should adopt desertion?
i have a problem with IQ tests, it is all based on honesty, if I'm not an honest person I would try to flunk it, considering thats the law. Which makes it an easy get out of death row ticket.

Honestly life in inhumane. and so is god for that matter. I mean god and life is the biggest killer of them all. But anyway.

Can you give me a good reason not to kill someone, that you know is 100% guality. You know 2-3 witnesses seeing him kill someone, which video proof sort of thing. Can you give me a good solid reason why you (the nay sayers that is) would not put them to death. With out using the term, its inhumane.

 

[monsta666]

QUOTE (Patrick5087 @ Jun 14 2008, 09:48 PM)i have a problem with IQ tests, it is all based on honesty, if I'm not an honest person I would try to flunk it, considering thats the law. Which makes it an easy get out of death row ticket.
It's true IQ tests can be abused. Saying that some system must be in place otherwise you'll end up locking up (or killing

) mentally handicapped people. One of the final hangings in Britain involved a person named Derek Bentley. He was hanged in 1953. Suffering brain damage as a child the person was bordering on mental retardation (they had an IQ of 66). It didn't stopped him from being hanged. Only in 1998 was this man given a posthumous pardon. I believe Canada had a similar case where a mentally retarded person was killed. So a system to test for intelligence is necessary.

EDIT - The case of Derek Bentley is long so I advice reading the article. I'm too lazy to describe it in detail!

QUOTE (Patrick5087)Honestly life in inhumane. and so is god for that matter. I mean god and life is the biggest killer of them all. But anyway.
It's not a good excuse to be inhumane. Why do people bother with human rights if some people ignore them?


QUOTE (Patrick5087)Can you give me a good reason not to kill someone, that you know is 100% quality. You know 2-3 witnesses seeing him kill someone, which video proof sort of thing. Can you give me a good solid reason why you (the nay sayers that is) would not put them to death. With out using the term, its inhumane.
To give the criminal the chance to reform. If you kill a criminal you never give them a chance to mend their ways. Off course there is always a chance of reoffending but that is the heart of the debate. What do you value more safety or mercy? Remember not many people who served life sentences go on to murder again. It is also important to remember that not every prisoner will be granted parole. So you won't get cases where maniacs are released into the public.

Yes you may mention serial killers but remember such cases are the exception rather than the norm. By exception they are less than one in hundred. Case in point the worst offenders in Britain are sentenced to life in prison with a chance of parole. Out of 10,911 life sentences only 28 off those serve life sentences without parole.

Other reasons to go against the death penalty is the belief that man does not have the right to decide who dies. Then you get issues of hypocrisy. It is wrong to murder yet capital punishment is state endorsed murder. As they say two wrongs don't make a right.

I believe I didn't use the forbidden word!

 

[kazasou]

QUOTE (monsta666 @ Jun 14 2008, 03:45 PM)
To give the criminal the chance to reform. If you kill a criminal you never give them a chance to mend their ways. Off course there is always a chance of reoffending but that is the heart of the debate. What do you value more safety or mercy? Remember not many people who served life sentences go on to murder again. It is also important to remember that not every prisoner will be granted parole. So you won't get cases where maniacs are released into the public.

Yes you may mention serial killers but remember such cases are the exception rather than the norm. By exception they are less than one in hundred. Case in point the worst offenders in Britain are sentenced to life in prison with a chance of parole. Out of 10,911 life sentences only 28 off those serve life sentences without parole.

Other reasons to go against the death penalty is the believe that man does not have the right to decide who dies. Then you get issues of hypocrisy. It is wrong to murder yet capital punishment is state endorsed murder. As they say two wrongs don't make a right.
Well said. That's why death sentence cases are very complicated. Also, we need to analyze per case before dropping death sentence. However, the facts are just against the death sentence cases. Many misconvicts occurs and it sadden me.

 

[kawaiis2]

so the question is preferably asking what do you think about death sentences...right?
OK! so i think that death sentences are BAD! i completely agree to the fact that people who hurt others should be punished, but if a man murdered someone and we think its wrong...what does it mean for us to kill that person as well?

Each person has the right to his or hers life, if they want to live or not. I think the laws should add "that a death sentences is carried out only by the wish of the person.", but I'm not saying to not punish those who have did wrong, we should punish them but we shouldn't take the things of others into our own hand, thinking it belongs to us!

It a tragedy to think how anyone can do something like end someone else's life! but thats how life works...the world doesn't only revolve around good, it has its bad sides as well.
But what am i too say about this! i don't know anything, its just based on what i think.
I'll say one true and cold-hearted word, if something really bad happened to you, well then i guess "BAD LUCK!"...sorry...