Diversity in the USA vs. in the rest of the World

[Dalriada]

In the thread about guns, an argument was made that the USA were much more diverse than other industrialized countries, and that was the reason of lax laws about guns.

The discussion went that way, and I decided to create a new thread to avoid threadcrapping the old one.

QUOTE (WolfPackOtaku)This struck me re-reading this forum. When you look at the other industrialized countries, how homogeneous they are. No other country in this world has such a diverse mix of races, religions, and ethnicities. Because we are so diverse, maybe the ownership of a gun, even one, makes you feel safe with so many different kinds of people and ideologies.


QUOTE (monsta666)Now I'm curious is this a general perception held in America? Or is this simply a minority view? The reason I say this is because when travelling to America I met someone who said something similar. Do some people think industrialised nations outside America are not multi-cultural? I can't vouch for every nation but Britain is pretty multi-cultural (probably because of our colonial roots). Yet I don't believe Britain is particularly violent (not more so than other countries anyway). I'm sure similar things can be said of other European nations. Particularly EU nations where less travel and work restrictions exist.


QUOTE (Your beloved Dalriada)
Quite a widespread perception, as far as I can tell (mainly through meaningful dicussions with Americans online). I've even encounter the idea that the USA is more culturally diverse than the whole Europe (and not by stupid people).

Of course, it's laughable, but it's not an uncommon idea (it's linked to American exceptionalism, imho).


QUOTE (Patrick5087) Honestly I think America is alot more diverse than some of the other countries, mainly if you where to go to even a different state your pretty much walking into another country at least thats how it feels most of the time.

I think the misconception is that as Americans we all think the same thing. Which isn't the case. Ask someone in California about the environment and you will more than likly get a speech about how we should save this or save that (granted you won't get that from me but still.) While if you where to go to Nevada, or Tennessee. You will get a different reaction.

But I also wouldn't doubt thats the same way in other large countries. Also you have to remember we are the same as we always have been. Generally don't travel. Either because we are not rich enough to or don't feel the need to travel. If we do travel we only go out of state, which as i said before is pretty much like going to a different countries at times. With at least the bonus of being able to speak the language. Unless you happen to wonder into South Carolina which then your on your own. tongue.gif

Also when people do vacation, people here wanna get out of the cities, and go to park areas and stuff. Last thing some people wanna do is go outa country to vist someone else's city, which have the exact same problems as every other big city in the world. Crime/muggings/murders. Which can all be found back at home. So yea.

Bottom line is try not to pin America down as saying this or that or thinking this or that, because, the only thing we are really thinking about is how to make the next house/bill payment and trying to keep our jobs from getting out sourced.

Also let me ask you this, do you know how many Mexicans are in Europe living there right now? How bout American Indians? While we know we have people from all over Eu. Asia. Just about everywhere.

And in all honesty I don't care. Anyone who like comparing things to me is just wanting of a medal or award.

Also, every country has there own ego, there is no exception. Its just Americas Ego.

So, let's compare two comparable countries : the USA and Belgium.

The USA (around 300 000 000 inhabitants) has one main language (English. Spanish is prevalent in some places, but doesn't have the importance of English), one main religion (More than 75% belong to Chritianity. According to Wikipedia, the second largest religion after is Judaism with less than 2%. I know, wikipedia...) and very powerful national media (Well... Hollywood ?).

Belgium (around 10 000 000 inhabitants) and three official languages (Dutch, French, German), religion is less homogeneous (43% claim to be Catholics, but 12% are Muslims) and the media are from various origins (America, of course. But also a lot of French stuff for the Wallon part and a lot of Dutch stuff for the Flemish part).

So, is the USA more diverse than Belgium ?
On some aspects, yeah, without the slighest doubt.
On some others, hell no !

And by the way, when someone says "America thinks", it doesn't mean that every part of America thinks ! Man, we're not that stupid.
Just that this idea is quite widespread, especially compared to the other countries.

 

[Patrick5087]

Look at the US census page it will tell you everything about that.

Honestly, anyone who uses those phrases has ill things on there minds. So far everyone I have talked to who uses such phrases can't come up with anything better.

Also throwing %'s up like that meaningless to me. Mainly because I dont know where they went to get that info. I personally wasn't asked any sort of questions. Or even if I was asked to take a survey I told them no, because I just dont want people asking me questions that I dont wish to answer. Also, there could be alot of soical pressure to answer a certain way. So even tho people may say "its very important" it could be because they are conditioned to say so. Because more than likely they where asked on the street, and if they where to say anything but that could be looked down on, in there community.

There was another study down where people where they would ask someone to take a survey in a room, that would start filling up with smoke, there was a group of 9 people the 1 person was the person being tested. Well during the survey the smoke would start coming out of the vents and under the doorway. The 9 people would be sitting there not paying attention to it, while the 1 person would look around at the other epople and not do anything. Out of the 5 people they showed during the test only 1 person got up and left the room. But by the time that person did so would already be suffering from smoke inhalation.

Also your measuring density in what is on TV what is national languages. Also you have to remember that America has a ton of dialects, you have texain, you have New yorkian, and all the southern states as well.

Also Belgium is a very small country that is surrounded by at least 3 different countries, 4 if you include the UK by sea. So yes Belgium would have different languages. In fact it wasn't until recently that Belgium has been a nation on its own. Which can mean that it had at least 2 or more countries fighting over the land.

While in the US its a huge country. Belgium is the 140th largest country while America is the 3rd.

So if you where to compare I would pick around the same category in land mass, like Russia or Canada. I would advise against Canada just because of the possibility of "cross contamination."

Also I think we have to define what you mean by diverse. Because if anything America is diverse. Granted most of the TV shows are from Hollywood type, shows just some are filmed at different locations. Also we have a few Latin American channels. Some from mexico, and I think one is in California, LA area based. We also have a few Asian channels. And we used to have AZN until it went bye bye. But also you have to remember that really we are being forced feed this stuff. We really dont have control over what we see on cable. I mean i am way too far away to get any TV signals from Canada or Mexico. I mean I would love to see what Canadians watch on TV, granted I think it will be in French... but I'm sure I can understand the situation at least.

Also there is another % figure for your consumption, there was a trust survey done in alot of different countries around the world. And the US rated under 40%, which means we trust the next person only 40%. So you can say that we are a very paranoid people. So the physiological reasonings behind owning a gun to "protect" yourself is there. While in the UK I think it was around 80-70%. Which means they feel safe walking around there cities.

Now the reasonings are anyone's guess, it could be ethnic it could be social, it could also be the fact that, we are scared of crime. It could be because of ethnic reasons, which sadly it is justified. So there is still a form of racism around. Some of it was brought about by actions of non-whites. But the sad part of that it was accutly caused by whites in that they won't open of jobs just because of a person's ethnic background.... So yes I'm saying is the white CEO type fault. For all of americas problems ATM.

Eh I think I touched on all that i could about this subject.

BTW TV as in air wave Television is pretty much dead, in America. I blame the FCC on that one...

 

[Dalriada]

I don't even understand what you're trying to say with your two first paragraphs, so I let them drop.

QUOTE
Also your measuring density in what is on TV what is national languages. Also you have to remember that America has a ton of dialects, you have texain, you have New yorkian, and all the southern states as well.

I'm speaking about languages, not dialects.
Other countries also have dialects, even France (and France has had a very strong policy on language). If you want an example, take Germany, with a strong divide between High German and Low German.



QUOTE Also Belgium is a very small country that is surrounded by at least 3 different countries, 4 if you include the UK by sea. So yes Belgium would have different languages. In fact it wasn't until recently that Belgium has been a nation on its own. Which can mean that it had at least 2 or more countries fighting over the land.

Which is an argument against the idea that the USA is particularly more diverse than other countries.
My point.


QUOTE
So if you where to compare I would pick around the same category in land mass, like Russia or Canada. I would advise against Canada just because of the possibility of "cross contamination."

The idea that it's unfair towards the largest country to compare the homogeneity of a small and a large country is pretty strange.
You'd think the small country is more homogeneous by far.

Well, if you prefer, we can compare with China or India ?

By the way, I'm not looking for bashing the USA by saying they are not as diverse as some Americans would believe. I will myself is one of the most centralized nation of Europe (by doing some rather vile stuff, like forbidding local languages during the first half the the XXth century, killing some of them).
But the special skowflake theory ("The USA are so special, so diverse... It doesn't follow the same rules than the rest of the humankind, you know") is somtimes getting on my nerves.


QUOTE
Also I think we have to define what you mean by diverse. Because if anything America is diverse. Granted most of the TV shows are from Hollywood type, shows just some are filmed at different locations. Also we have a few Latin American channels. Some from mexico, and I think one is in California, LA area based. We also have a few Asian channels. And we used to have AZN until it went bye bye.

Yes, yes, we have access to other cultures too, in the Old Europe.
I can receive the Belgian TV (at my greatest disappointment, since it's jamming some French channels). And I suspect it's easier to buy the Washington Post for me than Le monde for you.
There's even a Chinese-speaking TV in Paris (not widespread at all, aimed mainly at the Chinese migrants in Paris).

But I was speaking about the mainstream media. The ones the majority of the population watch or read.


QUOTE Also there is another % figure for your consumption, there was a trust survey done in alot of different countries around the world. And the US rated under 40%, which means we trust the next person only 40%. So you can say that we are a very paranoid people.

This thread is no more about guns ownership, so it should be on the other thread.

And while I trust your numbers, I guess there's some deeper reasons behind this paranoia, it's not just something in the water. But not the good thread to debate of that.

 

[monsta666]

QUOTE (Patrick5087 @ May 28 2008, 09:28 AM)Also your measuring density in what is on TV what is national languages. Also you have to remember that America has a ton of dialects, you have texain, you have New yorkian, and all the southern states as well.

In Britain there is the Essex lad (London area not strictly London), the Scouser (Liverpool), the Manchurian (Manchester), the Yorkshire man (York the old one!

), Geordie (Newcastle), Glaswegian (Glasgow) to name a few. The number of dialects probably numbers the amount of counties which is a lot more than America has states (there are more than 100 counties in Britain). I am sure America has more dialects simply because it is a bigger country but it doesn't mean that Britain has few dialects. I am sure similar things could be said of other countries.

Oh and like dalriada suggested England has a north and south divide (maybe not as strong as Germany). It is the poor North and the posh South. That's even before you consider the differences between the Scottish, Welsh and Irish. The Welsh and Irish literally have their own languages (it is a dying language admittedly). Oh and to mistake a Scotsman for an Englishman is akin to mistaking a Canadian for an American. You will offend a lot of people with that mistake!

Typical example the England cricket team actually consists of Wales and England. Scotland insisted in their own team. In football they wanted to make a team GB (Great Britain) but Scotland refused sharing a team with England!

Despite the stereotypes often portrayed in the media Britain is pretty diverse. There is a substantial Indian and Pakistani communities here. Not to mention people from different areas of Europe (Poland in particular). Come to London and you will see there are people from all walks of life. Again I can imagine other countries have similar things. Does France have many people from Algeria, Senegal etc? After all these countries used to be French colonies.

The beloved dalriada...

 

[Dalriada]

QUOTE
In Britain there is the Essex lad (London area not strictly London), the Scouser (Liverpool), the Manchurian (Manchester), the Yorkshire man (York the old one! laugh.gif), Geordie (Newcastle), Glaswegian (Glasgow) to name a few.

Let's add the famous cockney and its rythmic slang. ><
I'm completely unable to understand that.


QUOTE
Despite the stereotypes often portrayed in the media Britain is pretty diverse. There is a substantial Indian and Pakistani communities here. Not to mention people from different areas of Europe (Poland in particular).

Well, London is said to be the fourth biggest French town, because of the French expats.

It's probably an exaggeration, but it's still significant.

On the other hand, your English fellows like to retire in south-west of France, like Dordogne (Or Dordogneshire, as it should probably called now

)


QUOTE Again I can imagine other countries have similar things. Does France have many people from Algeria, Senegal etc? After all these countries used to be French colonies.

Of course.
The migrants from India or Pakistan are almost non-existant, but we have many migrants from the Maghreb (Algeria/Tunisia/Morroco) and from sub-saharian African (Mali/Senegal/Ivory Coast/Comoros).

 

[chiisai_hana]

Well, the US is certainly diverse but so are other countries. And diversity differs depending on where you live in the country. Urban centers are more diverse than a rural town. And just because you have a large population, doesn't make you more diverse. If you have (example) a million people and only half are from minority groups, does that make you more diverse than a smaller country of 100 000 people where over 3/4s are from different minority groups?

QUOTE I would advise against Canada just because of the possibility of "cross contamination.
I'm really curious as to what you mean here.

The general perception around here is that the states is ethnically diverse, but culturally a 'melting pot' which stresses homogeneous cultural practices. Now, that's most likely an generalization based on the fact that multi-culturalism is a huge part of Canadian identity in the present period. We like to envision ourselves as a cultural mosaic, etc etc, where people can come and keep their cultures going. But how do you measure diversity against another country? By where people in ethnic groups were born? By what languages they speak? Cultural observances? Just because someone is say, ethnically Asian, doesn't mean they ARE Asian in cultural practices - people born and raised in Canada tend to be like other Canadian-raised children. I have a friend who is Chinese, but doesn't speak the language and has never been to China. Ethnically, yes she is 'diverse' but she is just as Canadian as I am.


QUOTE I would love to see what Canadians watch on TV, granted I think it will be in French
LOL. Yeah. Maybe if you live in Quebec. We have ... 2 French channels where I live out of 60 channels on cable. And I can't understand what they're saying after ten years of French classes (except the cartoons for 5 year olds)

We have a lot of American channels (ABC, NBC) or, Canadian channels with American programming, or rip-off American programming ("So you think you can dance Canada", Canadian Idol, etc). In fact, illegal American satellite is rather popular around here! (And people get upset when the cable company blocks American commercials for Canadian ones when you're on a US channel). Of course, than you have the local multi-ethnic channel. Every hour it switches from Italian, Cantonese, Polish, Hindi, etc.

 

[monsta666]

QUOTE (Dalriada @ May 28 2008, 03:17 PM)Let's add the famous cockney and its rythmic slang. ><
I'm completely unable to understand that.

How could I forget cockney! Especially when I live in London!

Guess you hear it so much you kinda forget.

Going on about dialects, for dialects to form you need time and isolation. America is big so it lends itself to picking up dialects more quickly. Communities are more isolated. However other countries have been around longer so it kind of evens itself out. Britain and France etc maybe small but they been around for ages, much longer than America and Canada which are relatively young nations. Then again dialects says nothing about a countries ethnic diversity merely it's cultural diversity.


QUOTE The general perception around here is that the states is ethnically diverse, but culturally a 'melting pot' which stresses homogeneous cultural practices.
Now I'm slightly confused by this statement. Are you implying that America is so culturally diverse it risks losing it's national identity? I don't live in America so I can't be a good judge of this but I believe they still retain their identity despite the large amount of cultures living beside one another.

In any case we get similar arguments on this side of the pond. Is the large ethnic communities changing the British way of life? Will Britain lose it's identity if we do nothing? I believe these ideas are largely false (people who say these things usually have other agenda's in mind). I'm not saying the British culture will not be influenced by these communities, simply they will retain their identity. Take it this way we are influenced by our friends and family yet we still retain our personal identities.

I suppose Americans make a bigger show of there identity (they put flags on every building) while the British try to avoid these things. It's all about a stiff upper lip!

Funnily enough that phrase has an American origin... Is Britain really losing it's identity?!

 

[chickenwing71x]

Great point chiisai_hana. It's tough to measure diversity.

I live in Massachusetts in the US, in a generic rural/suburban town. Right down the street from where I live there is a huge community of people who all moved here from India together. In the other direction there are a lot of hispanic people. Theres also a decent amount of africans. But still, the vast majority are caucasians.

Everyone is obsessed with political correctness now. So in the elementary school there is no longer a "Christmas Concert" and "Christmas Vacation". Now, it's "Winter Break". Instead, the kids sing one (non-religous Santa Claus) Christmas song, a Kwanzaa song, a Hanukkah song, and some song in Spanish. I think it's only a matter of time before the little kids are singing a Muslim song.

Everything is primarily in english, always with a spanish translation, and sometimes french. We have 6 cable television channels (4 basic cable, 2 extended/digital) that broadcast in spanish, and two "asian" channels, that broadcast a mix of Chinese/Korean/Japanese. Satellite tv has more of a selection.


I think the US is fairly diverse, more so than some other large countries, such as Mexico, China, or Japan, but you can't really use superlatives. It isn't necessarily the most diverse, but it is in no way xenophobic. And does diverse mean ethnically, culturally, language, dialect, or what?


EDIT:

QUOTE I don't live in America so I can't be a good judge of this but I believe they still retain their identity despite the large amount of cultures living beside one another.

Its getting pretty damn bad when one of the presidential candidates refuses to wear a flag pin, because he doesn't want to offend anyone. He says he has been to all "fifty...fifty seven states, except one" and his wife says "This is the first time I have really been proud of this country", now that her husband is running for president. And people still vote for him!

A few public schools don't take care of their American flags at all anymore. One near here is shredded, and still hanging. I have had teachers who refuse to say the pledge of allegiance. Its pathetic. Then again, Massachusetts is one of the most liberal (american definition

) states in the country, so I can't say for all of America.

So while America isn't losing it's identity, it is in fact changing it, by dropping patriotism, which in the past was a staple of American identity.

Although, some people (not me) think what makes America, America, is the diversity.

 

[chiisai_hana]

QUOTE (monsta666 @ May 28 2008, 01:51 PM) Now I'm slightly confused by this statement. Are you implying that America is so culturally diverse it risks losing it's national identity? I don't live in America so I can't be a good judge of this but I believe they still retain their identity despite the large amount of cultures living beside one another.
No, I'm referring to "Americanization". Even though they are culturally diverse, it's believed that ethnic minorities in the US have to essentially become white Americans. They pick up the language, the culture, etc and hence lose most of their cultural distinctness. But as I said before, that's probably largely a generalization based on the fact that Canadians feel culturally diversity is what makes us different from the US. But the melting pot vs. cultural mosaic does play a lot into Canadians' perceptions of America (especially in the 1990's, I think. We always were taught this theory in school - it was written in textbooks and stuff).

Age also probably has something to do with it. The Canadian identity use to be British (with French treated equally for historical reasons). Now, it's often seen as multi-cultural because there has been so many immigrant waves over the century. But defining the Canadian identity is a whole other issue

We have an identity crisis over here that is largely from decades of "we're not American!!!" upon leaving behind the British identity.

 

[Dalriada]

QUOTE
I think the US is fairly diverse, more so than some other large countries, such as Mexico, China, or Japan, but you can't really use superlatives. It isn't necessarily the most diverse, but it is in no way xenophobic. And does diverse mean ethnically, culturally, language, dialect, or what?

I will repeat my point, because I know discussions on identity can get hot very quickly : I'm not denying that there's a large diversity in the USA. Just that using this diversity as a cheap explaination of why the USA can behave differently than the rest of the world doesn't work very well (at least not without further precisions), because diversity also exists in other countries.

By the way, you're certainly underestimating China (possibly based on the myth of the communist regime controlling everything). Just look at how many ethnic groups (the main ones being the Hans, of course, but also Zhuangs, Tibetans, Uyghurs or Mongols) or at how many languages there is (although a standard China as been introduced).


QUOTE
A few public schools don't take care of their American flags at all anymore. One near here is shredded, and still hanging. I have had teachers who refuse to say the pledge of allegiance. Its pathetic.

The expectation of having everyone behind the flag... Is it a sign of diversity ?

I understand perfectly that our histories are different (Pledge of allegiance in school would be unthinkable. Last time we did that, we were also sending jews in Auschwitz...) but it's still a sign that on some points, the USA isn't as much heterogeneous as she believes.

---------------------------


QUOTE Going on about dialects, for dialects to form you need time and isolation. America is big so it lends itself to picking up dialects more quickly. Communities are more isolated. However other countries have been around longer so it kind of evens itself out. Britain and France etc maybe small but they been around for ages, much longer than America and Canada which are relatively young nations.

About dialects in smalled countries like France or Britain, don't forget that in the past, geographical and social mobility was far less important than in two last centuries.
You may had massive migrations, invasions and stuff, but the average farmer wasn't expected to go further than the next town to sell his vegetables.


QUOTE
In any case we get similar arguments on this side of the pond. Is the large ethnic communities changing the British way of life? Will Britain lose it's identity if we do nothing? I believe these ideas are largely false (people who say these things usually have other agenda's in mind). I'm not saying the British culture will not be influenced by these communities, simply they will retain their identity. Take it this way we are influenced by our friends and family yet we still retain our personal identities.

Moreover, the British identity is already built on a patchwork of other cultures, through invasions (including a French one, take that !

), migrations, trades, alliances...
Yes, the identity will change, one should certainly hope it changes, because a sclerosed culture is a dying culture.


And a little apology to chiisai_hana. I'd like to answer to your posts but your comments are so wise I can't find anything to add.

 

[chickenwing71x]

QUOTE I will repeat my point, because I know discussions on identity can get hot very quickly : I'm not denying that there's a large diversity in the USA. Just that using this diversity as a cheap explaination of why the USA can behave differently than the rest of the world doesn't work very well (at least not without further precisions), because diversity also exists in other countries.

How does diversity give America rights other countries don't have? Oh yeah, there are no Rights, because there is no world government. Other countries just don't choose to do what America does, and diversity has nothing to do with it. I was completely unaware people used it as an explanation, and if they do, it makes absolutely no sense and puts a bad name on America as a whole. Theres no need for an explanation in the first place, since as long as no treaties or agreements are violated, a country can do whatever it wants.



QUOTE The expectation of having everyone behind the flag... Is it a sign of diversity ?

I understand perfectly that our histories are different (Pledge of allegiance in school would be unthinkable. Last time we did that, we were also sending jews in Auschwitz...) but it's still a sign that on some points, the USA isn't as much heterogeneous as she believes.

I don't think putting people behind the flag is a sign of diversity or a sign of uniformity. I was trying to clarify/answer what monsta666 said about losing identity because of diversity. I had no intention of using it as evidence on either side of the argument. People here are so afraid of offending each other that they don't even say the pledge of allegiance. You don't want to offend those Mexicans who came here illegally, by flying the American flag, right?

People tend to connect German nationalism to the holocaust, and the US has no such problem; so yes, they have different histories. But, that is beside the point, as I was only answering what monsta666 said, and using the flag as an example of how America is changing its identity, because of diversity and political correctness.

 

[monsta666]

QUOTE (chickenwing71x @ May 28 2008, 07:03 PM)It's tough to measure diversity.
Diversity is a bit of a vague term so it is difficult to measure. Measuring things like ethnic diversity, religion or languages spoken are easier. I mean a census (although not up to date) can measure the size of the communities, religion or languages spoken. As for cultural diversity that's more difficult but the number of dialects can definitely be measured.


QUOTE Everyone is obsessed with political correctness now. So in the elementary school there is no longer a "Christmas Concert" and "Christmas Vacation". Now, it's "Winter Break". Instead, the kids sing one (non-religous Santa Claus) Christmas song, a Kwanzaa song, a Hanukkah song, and some song in Spanish. I think it's only a matter of time before the little kids are singing a Muslim song.
It's a difficult issue and one that cannot be dismissed so easily. On the one hand you could remove issues of religion from the state completely (I believe this is the case in France). In my opinion they should retain Christian songs but allow people the right not to take part in them. I mean it is unfair for people who aren't Christian to take part in a Christian event that they don't believe in. In my opinion this is a fair compromise and can be seen as example of society changing due to communities differing opinions.


QUOTE Its getting pretty damn bad when one of the presidential candidates refuses to wear a flag pin, because he doesn't want to offend anyone.

A few public schools don't take care of their American flags at all any more. One near here is shredded, and still hanging. I have had teachers who refuse to say the pledge of allegiance. Its pathetic. Then again, Massachusetts is one of the most liberal (american definition

) states in the country, so I can't say for all of America.
This is what I was talking about earlier. How Americans place a bigger importance in patriotism. In the last general election between Tony Blair and Michael Howard there were plenty of badges for the Labour and Conservative parties yet there are no England flags/badges. Many people in Britain associate extreme patriotism with xenophobia. Whether or not this fear is well founded I don't know but it shows the fundamental difference between English and American attitudes. Similar things could be said about the pledge of allegiance in schools.

I think it all highlights the point that chiisai_hana made that Americans are more concerned about assimilation rather than integration (please, please correct me if I'm wrong!

). It is a tricky area integration is required to avoid racial tensions. On the other hand assimilation is to be avoided as you decrease the diversity in a given population.


QUOTE (chickenwing71x @ May 28 2008, 09:09 PM)How does diversity give America rights other countries don't have?
Okay I think this is a misunderstanding. In the other thread diversity was used as an explanation to looser gun laws. Remember this thread spawned from US Gun laws thread!

QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ May 28 2008, 07:17 PM)But defining the Canadian identity is a whole other issue

We have an identity crisis over here that is largely from decades of "we're not American!!!" upon leaving behind the British identity.
So instead of developing your own identity you just shout WE'RE NOT AMERICANS really loudly?

 

[chickenwing71x]

QUOTE (monsta666)This is what I was talking about earlier. How Americans place a bigger importance in patriotism. In the last general election between Tony Blair and Michael Howard there were plenty of badges for the Labour and Conservative parties yet there are no England flags/badges. Many people in Britain associate extreme patriotism with xenophobia. Whether or not this fear is well founded I don't know but it shows the fundamental difference between English and American attitudes. Similar things could be said about the pledge of allegiance in schools.

Americans traditionally have had a lot of patriotism. Look at all the songs. "I'm Proud to Be an American". But my point was, in the US Government, especially in elections, everyone has traditionally worn a pin with the American flag on it. One of the democratic candidates this election has chosen not to, just for the sake of making a point. He "didn't want to offend anyone". Thats what I meant when I said diversity and political correctness are changing America's identity. What used to be an extremely patriotic and independent country is now starting to conform to the rest of the world, with things like gun control, and religion in government.


QUOTE (monsta666)Okay I think this is a misunderstanding. In the other thread diversity was used as an explanation to looser gun laws. Remember this thread spawned from US Gun laws thread!

I hadn't been following the US Gun Control thread, so... thanks for clearing it up. Thats a crappy explanation for allowing guns, not that there even needs to be one past the second amendment to the US constitution.


QUOTE (monsta666)It's a difficult issue and one that cannot be dismissed so easily. On the one hand you could remove issues of religion from the state completely (I believe this is the case in France). In my opinion they should retain Christian songs but allow people the right not to take part in them. I mean it is unfair for people who aren't Christian to take part in a Christian event that they don't believe in. In my opinion this is a fair compromise and can be seen as example of society changing due to communities differing opinions.

If only more people thought like you! I once got in trouble in school for arguing with a teacher about creation/evolution in schools. That, I think is the best compromise, and thats actually how it was a couple years ago, stupid people getting offended over everything...