Greg Aires On Fansubbing


Ad: Buy Girls Und Panzer Merch from Play Asia!
QUOTE (khael @ Nov 06 2007, 05:48 AM)And let me ask this, how does licensing actually work? For example, if Geneon acquires the license to release an anime in North America, fansubbers there would have to stop right? But what if i'm, for example, in Europe?
Fansubs are, in their very nature, illegal. It does not matter if it is licensed or not in your region, fansubbing it an illegal activity because it violates copyright laws. It is just easier to your own government to persecute you for fansubbing than a foreign one. That is why most English groups stop when a series if licensed in the US - because they are based in the US, or are using American servers to distribute the fansubs.

For those living in Europe - whose DVDs do you buy for official English releases? Are they the ones released by American companies? If the European and American government cooperated, they could probably persecute you as well (my assumption). Well, any country could go after you for fansubbing because it violates Japanese law. But International Law isn't that effective/efficient.
 
I'm not in Europe, it was an example.

I see, so my guess was right. Now the problem comes with the internet of course since the internet is a vast place and it would be really hard to write laws for it IF it is even possible. So i guess there really is no stopping fansubbing unless the fansubbers themselves decide to. Is my guess right?
 
QUOTE (khael @ Nov 06 2007, 01:18 PM) So i guess there really is no stopping fansubbing unless the fansubbers themselves decide to. Is my guess right?
A japanese company may be able to sue a fansub team (are rather the fansubbers, since a team has no legal existence) in a foreign (american, european...) court, since they 'own the licence' automatically (when you sell the licence, you just sell the authorisation to distribute the anime in a specific area in your place). Good knowledge in laws would be require to answer to this question accurately (especiallly how is implemented the laws on copyright in each country).


QUOTE
For those living in Europe - whose DVDs do you buy for official English releases? Are they the ones released by American companies? If the European and American government cooperated, they could probably persecute you as well (my assumption).

In France, it can be both way. Some stuff is adapted from japanese material, some other stuff from american material.
It can get complicated when you see that some american companies (Viz Media, Jetix...) are present in europe, but that they don't own the same licence than in the USA, that they may not even have the same licence in two different european countries. ><
 
As far as i know you cannot yet get sued for breaking international copywrite laws here in Sweden at least but pressure from America is buckling most europen countries to change it.

I do have a hard time believing that Japanees Companies would go to those lenghts considering most of their work is toward Japan. It's more the American ones that engeage in those kinda endevours.

It's still pretty hard stopping something that's this popular and let's face it there still is crime even tho the prisons are full same thing here subber will keep appearing if they believe in what they are doing.
 
I'm reading a lot of very good points regarding fansubbing. But the problem with those viewpoints is that they're from fans of fansubbing and not really that of the industry or for that matter, a neutral party. To a lot of people we are just pirating material mostly because of a lot of dumb people that like to download lisenced material.
Straightforward, there are still a lot of stupid (and some lazy) people that keeping fansubbed material long after it has been lisenced. It's a lot of the same time when these people download lisenced material just the same. I believe that's what Greg is talking about.
I think we are obligated to buy what we download, morally obligated in my opinion. If we're fans of a series, then we should show our devotion by getting it

At least I think I typed my thoughts correctly
 
QUOTE (Dalriada @ Nov 06 2007, 03:07 PM) A japanese company may be able to sue a fansub team (are rather the fansubbers, since a team has no legal existence) in a foreign (american, european...) court, since they 'own the licence' automatically (when you sell the licence, you just sell the authorisation to distribute the anime in a specific area in your place). Good knowledge in laws would be require to answer to this question accurately (especiallly how is implemented the laws on copyright in each country).



In France, it can be both way. Some stuff is adapted from japanese material, some other stuff from american material.
It can get complicated when you see that some american companies (Viz Media, Jetix...) are present in europe, but that they don't own the same licence than in the USA, that they may not even have the same licence in two different european countries. ><

How will they even know who to sue? Aren't fansub groups protected by the anonymity of the internet? Wait a sec. Is it possible if you use IP addresses? Or can those be faked too?

Besides, what i said right in that post is reflective of the state of fansubbing today. I mean, there are still fansubs who sub shows even though they are licensed. Like those fansubbing bleach for instance. Wasn't Bleach licensed by VizMedia?

It's like trying to eradicate pests in a dirty home [Sorry for the comparison]. It is possible, but it is hard, and it requires change in the order of things.

Well anyways, you're pretty much right about the knowledge on laws bit there.
dry.gif

That's why i ask questions like this:


QUOTE And let me ask this, how does licensing actually work? For example, if Geneon acquires the license to release an anime in North America, fansubbers there would have to stop right? But what if i'm, for example, in Europe?

BTW if they really do want to eradicate fansubbing i think they should first start in their own country. I think the best solution to stop fansubbing is to stop the distribution of the RAWS itself. You can't kill weed just by cutting it, you have to take out the roots. Isn't uploading raws against copywright laws too? Since the anime shown in Japan are copywrighted and already licensed in Japan. D'ya think it's plausible?
 
QUOTE
How will they even know who to sue? Aren't fansub groups protected by the anonymity of the internet? Wait a sec. Is it possible if you use IP addresses? Or can those be faked too?

Anonymity in the Internet is mostly a myth, when the ISP is willing to give informations (although, usually, they only do it if the justice requires it).
Your best bet to avoid that is using servers and proxies based in foreign countries with less stringent laws

It's even easier when the fansub team has a website with it's own domain name (I've found a name and an adress behind fansub.tv in a few minutes, with only pubic, available to everyone services. I guess it's the right one, since googling the name+fansub.tv gave me something that looked like a confirmation).


QUOTE
BTW if they really do want to eradicate fansubbing i think they should first start in their own country. I think the best solution to stop fansubbing is to stop the distribution of the RAWS itself. You can't kill weed just by cutting it, you have to take out the roots. Isn't uploading raws against copywright laws too? Since the anime shown in Japan are copywrighted and already licensed in Japan. D'ya think it's plausible?

As far as I know, some companies have made some moves against raw providers in Japan. I only remember seeing it somewhere on the net, so I've no references (and looking for a reference in japanese... no thanks!), so take it with a big grain of salt.
 
As this discussion is steering more towards the legal issues of fansubs, you should probably take a look at this thread: Fansubs: Legal or Illegal. It might answer some of your questions.

This thread should be kept on-topic as much as possible, discussing whether fansubs hurt the American industry.
 
QUOTE (Byproduct @ Nov 06 2007, 06:27 PM) I'm reading a lot of very good points regarding fansubbing. But the problem with those viewpoints is that they're from fans of fansubbing and not really that of the industry or for that matter, a neutral party. To a lot of people we are just pirating material mostly because of a lot of dumb people that like to download licensed material.
Straightforward, there are still a lot of stupid (and some lazy) people that keeping fansubbed material long after it has been licensed. It's a lot of the same time when these people download licensed material just the same. I believe that's what Greg is talking about.
I think we are obligated to buy what we download, morally obligated in my opinion. If we're fans of a series, then we should show our devotion by getting it

At least I think I typed my thoughts correctly
Hello, the OP again. ^^

I just wanted to first say that I am not surprised of the opinions I'm hearing from almost everyone here. The one that I appreciate the most however is this one here as it fully describes my mindset on the whole issue even now.

I am a fan of a lot of anime, and there are a few that I have seen here that still have not been licensed here in the US. I've very greatful that they were. My most recent acquisition is Popotan (the anime, not the game). It was a show that I enjoyed and got to enjoy first because of a fansub. Now, there are series that I have seen an episode or two of and really didn't enjoy as much. These, I would rather not pick up for myself, nor would I continue to download the rest of. Maybe they'll be on television one day and I'll give it a chance there, but if not, oh well. But if I enjoyed a series enough to download at least four or five episodes, I fully plan to and do buy it the first day I see it and the money is in my hands (Though I'd much rather thin-pack the series for space).

This, I feel, is my responsibility as a fan to show my support. There are a lot of really great voice actors out there that deserve recognition for their hard work considering they don't get paid well. Let me rephrase that, they get paid very well, but on the other hand, they don't get hours. I mean, sure, $20/hour sounds like a lot, but when you realize that they are hired by the CD for roughly 8 hour time periods, it's like $160 which is nothing at all. I can only imagine that they do the job because they love it. I wish I could give it a chance some time, but don't know what kind of character I'd be able to portray well. I'd work way cheaper, just to be able to say, hey, that's me in that show, lol. But I do respect the great work they do.

Anyway, I did that straying from the point thing again...

However, yes, most of us here agree that we like fansubs because they are available and as fans of the series we watch, many of us pick them up as soon as we have the chance to.

Thank you Byproduct-san.
 
This is a good topic for this site.

On one hand, I love fansubs because they let me see all kinds of anime I'd usually never get to see, due to the lack of television broadcasts in the U.S., and I also get to get a flavor of the japanese culture by seeing the stuff in all it's crazy japanese glory (I say crazy as a compliment). Being the poor, starving college student that I am, I really don't have the funds to pay anywhere near for half of the anime I watch. And there's also the fact that it's relatively difficult to get your hands on, much more to actually discover and anime you like when you can only purchase the things online without having any idea what it's like. Of course that's largely due to the relatively small size of local anime-distribution/dubbing companies. Since they're small, they can't advertise, can't distribute a vast wealth of animes, or get funding for a major live-action movie (wait a sec... Eva???). Anyways, the builk of the reason that anime companies like Geneon and ADV (is that a company???) aren't getting mammoth sales is because there isn't a mammoth audience for the anime.
ohmy.gif


...but on the other hand, fansubbing really isn't the most moral thing to do. Even if an anime is unlicensed and it's technically legal (it is technically legal, isn't it?) to distribute outside Japan, it's all-around uncool to take for free what so many people have worked on to feed their poor, starving college-babies (a little irony there for ya'). But this issue really boils down to internet piracy as a whole.

I don't really believe that licensed animes are being hurt all that badly by fansubbing, largely because anime is still quite a niche market in America (and I'm assuming other places as well). I mean, you look at any given bit torrent site and first thing you see the latest hollywood blockbuster, or the latest Harry Potter book with 500,000 peers currently downloading the thing. Once ( or if *shudders*) anime becomes popular enough in America (and Canada, and finlad, and the Welsh province...), local anime distributors and dubbers won't have nearly as much to complain about. Piracy is piracy, but piracy is freakin' RAMPANT!

This issue of copyright infringment (ethical fansubbing isn't really copyright infringement, I know, but it still applies) still needs to be resolved. One of the most dangerous things a society can do is make laws that cannot be enforced (or at least Einstein thought so), so something's going to have to be done about copyright laws. I mean, the laws were made long before anyone knew what an internet was. It's an all-around sticky issue. Then again, maybe I'm just a biased fool for loving anime too much.

And just for the record, I plan on purchasing the entire series of every single anime I've ever liked once I strike it rich and have such discretionary income. In the mean time, I think I'll continue to download arguably ethical pseudo-contraband.

Ack! I hope I don't think this way because I simply want to justify my insatiable lust for anime, but hey, I am that I am.
 
I completely disagree with greg on this. The reason is greg is making bank on it. Back in the day if we did not know Japanese we were stuck with out having our favorite anime in english. Greg makes bank being a voice actor for making it so us that don't know anime can view this anime. If we own the anime we should be able to make able so that we can be able to understand if we don't have it in english. The reason greg make this so powerful is what cons is he not at. He has spent preparing this with multiple other voice actors at numerous cons. To create a very powerful one side punch. When he is not invited to conventions. He will make fun not of just the con but the con-chair as well. Create logos effects. He does all he can to make money. He had said that the convention are a dying thing. He things he can control. Remember he makes bank. Is one-sided and look at this
htt p://timetravelisawesome.com/2008/07/greg-ayres-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-fansubbers/

I much more present but just wait.
 
QUOTE I completely disagree with greg on this. The reason is greg is making bank on it. Back in the day if we did not know Japanese we were stuck with out having our favorite anime in english. Greg makes bank being a voice actor for making it so us that don't know anime can view this anime. If we own the anime we should be able to make able so that we can be able to understand if we don't have it in english.

You're missing the point here.
The argument is not that fansubbing hurt the Japanese anime industry, but the local (American here) translated anime industry. And then, he makes a valid point.

Besides, you owns only the right to watch the anime, not to modify or distribute it.
 
All industries face this problem, films, music, even day to day tv is being ripped off but it seems that the anime industry is too small to take the hits.

The only real solution i can see is for anime to become a much global product rather then relying on American licensing companies to distribute it to the rest of the world. This would obviously equal to mass production, less quality and even production being moved from japan and then well its not really anime. However i think Anime industry need new ideas of satisfying the global demand rather than just thinking they are creating anime for japanese first and formost.

For instance, lets take gundam 00 aired on saturday and by monday i can buy a gundam 00 episode on itunes for £1.99 i would gladly buy it and im sure im not the only one who would. Ofcourse there is the odd person that would still try to get it for free but i think the majority would buy it legally if there were more opportunities to do so and the price was right. Also i think people that want to buy anime would have no problem watching a subbed version rather then dubbed so there would really be no need for overscale dubbing productions that sound crap anyway.

Oh and also anime would have to become much mainstream then it is and i know for some people here are ready to lynch me for saying that because some people watch anime for it specialisation in one art.

What i propose is not neccessarily the best solution and if the industry went through this process of globalisation, i doubt you could even call it anime anymore but i see no otherway. Also i live in the Uk, and i refuse to research an anime to then wait 3-4 years (if it get license) to buy an overpriced dvd when i can get it now. To sum it up anime needs to be expanded, satisfy global demands quicker or continue the way things are going and see what happens.
 
QUOTE For instance, lets take gundam 00 aired on saturday and by monday i can buy a gundam 00 episode on itunes for £1.99 i would gladly buy it and im sure im not the only one who would. Ofcourse there is the odd person that would still try to get it for free but i think the majority would buy it legally if there were more opportunities to do so and the price was right. Also i think people that want to buy anime would have no problem watching a subbed version rather then dubbed so there would really be no need for overscale dubbing productions that sound crap anyway.


You are much much more optimistic about the human nature than I am.
The main audience of animes is what ? High schoolers and students, I'd say. A public with a lot of free time, but not a lot of money, nor a lot of patience.

So this audience would have the choice between a free fansubbed anime released as soon as possible on the net, or paying for an official subbed anime, a few days/weeks later (and I'd guess the price would not be cheap. Look how much cost a sound-only 3-minutes-long piece of music and compare with a 26-minutes anime, with sound and animations).

I've already seen what would happen with videogames. People would say "I download animes for free, but the good animes I like, I buy them".
And when you look further, you realize than they watch a lot of animes, but like only a very little percentage of them.
They must be masochist.
Or hypocritical.
 
Not entirely sure how relevant this point is to the thread but there is another factor regarding distribution. I know at least being in England that a vast majority of animes I watch on fansub sites will most likely never make to to this country. The license will either not get bought or if it does even finding the anime would be pretty difficult. To my knowledge Britain is not even as well distributed to as the States.eg. There are some shows that I didn't even know existed until I spent time in the States and those stores that sell licensed animes generally do not stock very upto date material unless it is already known to be a big hit elsewhere. So in terms of legality as well as laws being adressed the issue about distribution would also need to be addressed as there will always be a market for an item that is hard to get.
 
The cheaper anime becomes the less attractive fansubs will be. You see this with everything, when cigarettes are more heavily taxed the cheaper illegal cigarettes become more attractive (people have more to gain from buying them). I think this is part of the reason why fansubs will always be popular. Saying that, fansubs are not exactly like illegal cigarettes; fansubs can promote anime series that have yet to arrive in the states. So the picture is not so simple.

It will be interesting to compare the sales of an anime series that have less fansub exposure (MFI works) to other series that have been subbed by a lot of fansubbers, particularly popular ones. Have the sales of MFI series gone down since they made the cease and desist notice? It's probably the best way of telling whether fansubs harm the industry or not.

If it were more clear cut (like downloading music) then I feel more aggressive action would have been taken. I'm under the impression many anime distributors were not sure if fansubs were harming the industry at all. It seems anime sales have gone up despite the large increase of illegal fansubs, so it's not immediately obvious if they are harming the industry. In recent years the anime industry has been falling on hard times as a number of distributors have stopped licensing anime. Whether this was the result of the fansubbers, a poor economy or simply to many anime series on the market is difficult to tell. In either case it is difficult to say whether fansubs are detrimental to the anime industry.
 
QUOTE (monsta666 @ Nov 03 2008, 10:50 AM) If it were more clear cut (like downloading music) then I feel more aggressive action would have been taken. I'm under the impression many anime distributors were not sure if fansubs were harming the industry at all. It seems anime sales have gone up despite the large increase of illegal fansubs, so it's not immediately obvious if they are harming the industry. In recent years the anime industry has been falling on hard times as a number of distributors have stopped licensing anime. Whether this was the result of the fansubbers, a poor economy or simply to many anime series on the market is difficult to tell. In either case it is difficult to say whether fansubs are detrimental to the anime industry.
Good point but there are sites out the that are making money at the expense of fansubbers and anime producers.

You know the ones im talking about, the ones that charge monthly fees for you to download a fansub copy that they didnt even produce. While it may not ultimately hurt the Anime industry, if it was me i would be dammed if i allowed someone to take the program i created and make money on it by hosting it on a few servers. That would royally piss me off.

Again, i still think Anime companies should make it their business to distribute their own anime without relying on licensing companies to get it to the outer world, just like Apple had to make it their business to distribute music as well.

@Dalrida
Its not that im optimistic about human nature, im just saying if there were more opportunities to get anime legally and cheaply then perhaps more people would be tempted to buy episode as oppose to nothing right now.
Also i dont see why it should be more expensive i.e an episode of heroes which is 45mins is £1.99 hence why i said it. Just more opportunities to get it faster may impact the illegality of this situation is all im saying.
 
Well fansubs may be good or bad. Even if i don`t fit in the legal/illegal matter i think that fansubs could be the exactly opposite of decreasing the profits of the distributors. They may actually increase them because in my opinion there are often released lots of animes of which even the "biggest anime fan" didn`t hear of.


To be honest , dubs are made after they see that the animes get to the viewers. They wouldn`t waste money on any anime series that is unknown. I`d like to give an example like Naruto: do you believe that they started dubing just after it was released? wrong it was dubed only after they started to see that the people like it.


In my opinion some animes are better in their original language because , i don`t know, it`s just like you can get the actor`s feelings.

This maybe be only my point of view.

I am for the subs , I don`t think they harm anyone. I understand that they shouldn`t be subed as soon as they come out in Japan but after some time it should so other people can see it. For example I don`t understand only a few words in japanese , so it`s quite helpfull for me and i bet they`re the same for others.


QUOTE (franzoir @ Nov 03 2008, 12:18 PM) 
Good point but there are sites out the that are making money at the expense of fansubbers and anime producers.


That`s a good opinion there. Those things really are despicable and i don`t appreciate them at all.My view here is that they should be free only that people who like anime can understand them then buy it (only if they like it a lot). That`s how i do it if i really like it i run and buy it. That`s how it should be to be honest but yes human nature just can`t do it i suppose.
But as i`m in the condition of a student who really can`t afford much i see that prices grow each day and it`s really a pain. Took me 2 years to buy a nice drum set so there can`t be many animes besides can it?
tongue.gif
As i said for the special animes i make an exception and buy em even if it costs me not eating lol ( not really in that condition but happened once
biggrin.gif
)


This is only my point of view so please don`t *bite* me if i said something wrong
unsure.gif
.

It`s a good debate so please keep it up.


Cheers!
smile.gif
 
Fansubs themselves are not killing the american side of the anime industry. People that hold onto the fansubs LONG after they've been released in the United States and continue distribution afterward are. The only problem with that is that they're nearly impossible to stop (besides sicking federal copyright law on them, but then we're all screwed for the same reason).

The way fansubs are done (IMO) is slightly flawed, but only slightly. I watch fansubbed stuff to find out what I'm missing culturally in other parts of the world (OK, and yeah, some of these series are just plain good), and I delete it right after, just like if I was watching TV. We're getting these episodes at about the same rate as they are getting them on free TV in Japan.

Gonzo had a really good strategy for a while that they did with Tower of Druaga - they made their own English subtitles and put the episodes on YouTube themselves, virtually removing the need for fansubbing on that series. I don't know if what else I heard was true, but they got a small profit for each episode watched that way, and it turned out to be profitable. Gonzo made a great move, but I haven't seen anything else follow suit.

What I think should be done is something along those lines - the Japanese companies could either coordinate with the ones in the USA to produce series at the same time (thus simultaneously releasing in the USA and Japan, likely really tough to do), or hire a subtitling group in the USA and do what Gonzo did - stream the video over the internet for a profit. Either way, fansubbing would become unnecessary.

I honestly doubt Japan's gonna work too hard with us, though.
 
QUOTE (magmakyag @ Nov 06 2008, 01:24 AM) The way fansubs are done (IMO) is slightly flawed, but only slightly. I watch fansubbed stuff to find out what I'm missing culturally in other parts of the world (OK, and yeah, some of these series are just plain good), and I delete it right after, just like if I was watching TV. We're getting these episodes at about the same rate as they are getting them on free TV in Japan.
First off people need to remember, that no, they aren't getting them for free. People in Japan do have to pay for their cable and satelite tv in order to be able to watch this and on tv there are commercials. So anyone who tries using the idea that people in japan get to watch it for free to justify fansubs, don't. Not saying you are magmakyag but I have definitely seen it before.

I agree with you though about the way Gonzo went about it all. It's a fantastic method to use add supported video streaming sites to get subtitles anime up for us almost immediately after airing. I wish they would do this more with Hulu just cause I know it's quality is better than youtube and crunchyroll is just absolute crap. I tried watching an episode of Blassreiter there and it was just horrible. I know Hulu has some anime series there and now that i look at it maybe I'll try watching Black Blood Brothers there and Blue Gender. Also now that I look at Hulu I see a whole section just for anime and what do I find? The first 2 episodes of Shikabane Hime up there subbed. Progress.

And I don't see how people can think that fansubs do not hurt the industry. Sure there was a time when they were a great way to get a good anime through the community so people would know about it, but that was before it becamse so amazingly simple for anyone to get anime. It still has that effect, but it's also completely overshadowed by people just watching fansubs and leaving it at that. I know, cause I was one of them. I've gotten better in that I now buy series that I like, but I still watch a lot more fansubs than buy for a few reasons. 1-I think singles are a complete waste of my money so I refuse to ever buy them. I'm not gonna buy 6 or 7 dvds for a full series at $15-20 a piece when I can just wait and buy the full set for $40-60 later. 2-I'm a college student and extra money isn't something I normally have to spend on anime.
 
Playasia - Play-Asia.com: Online Shopping for Digital Codes, Video Games, Toys, Music, Electronics & more
Back
Top