School Shootings...


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QUOTE (dchaosblade @ Feb 18 2008, 02:35 AM) About the comment about Americans being blind to how bad our country is, I deny that wholeheartedly. If anything, Americans are the WORST critics of our own country. These days, its hard to walk down the street and not hear people complaining about Bush doing this, that or the other thing, about how our healthcare is wrong, about how this is messed up, that is messed up, and the other thing is messed up.
Oh we most certainly are that. Heck, even newscasters bitch about Bush constantly. Just gotta watch a little Keith Olbermann to see that. Then you can listen to a little punk music and realize that every single band has at LEAST 5 songs dedicated to how shitty this administration really is. Then take a little looksie around the internet and find all the American run sites complaining with a fury as to how bad things have been becoming. And lo and behold folks, there's a good reason you don't see this place as being as bad as it is. It's called media manipulation. I can't even TELL you how many time's I've had to go to the BBC's website to find news out about issues HERE in America because none of the US based news sites will touch it.
 
Just so as not to soil the reputation of our non-US friends:
The orange balls and jingle bells recommendation was made by a natural US Citizen, age 47. I don't believe that such a recommendation is actually feasible but neither is preventing some type of weapon from making it to campus. My only fear is that it is a just a matter of time till we hear of something worse and still there is no way to prevent it.


Spelling error corrected thankyou
 
QUOTE Oh we most certainly are that. Heck, even newscasters bitch about Bush constantly. Just gotta watch a little Keith Olbermann to see that. Then you can listen to a little punk music and realize that every single band has at LEAST 5 songs dedicated to how shitty this administration really is. Then take a little looksie around the internet and find all the American run sites complaining with a fury as to how bad things have been becoming.

But but but...
It's the same thing everywhere else !
The end of the French Republic was once again foretold last week.
It's hard to see for a foreigners (because it's the wrong language, because it's not often on the headlines, because if ill-speaking about France is fine for a Frenchman, it's francophobia when it comes from a foreigner -I never said we were rational-), but it does exist.


QUOTE I can't even TELL you how many time's I've had to go to the BBC's website to find news out about issues HERE in America because none of the US based news sites will touch it.

I do that too.
Sometimes, I even go on the foxnews website to see how they depicte the European news. It's always funny.
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Well first off this seems to have escalated into a US citizen versus foreigner thing citing "you don't know what it's like over here"...

Well foreigners may not, but why does that matter? Hell I've lived in the US my entire life and I don't know what's going on here sometimes. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the foreigners knew more about US news than what I know.We're all making blanket assumptions, and I think we should take a step back and just listen to what people are saying.

QUOTE Metal detectors (X-ray for large bags?) will not completely eliminate the gun problem in schools I will grant you that but I feel it will significantly reduce the incidents of gun crime.

Again, it won't happen. Since the construction and maintenance of metal detectors would be put on the taxpayers and students, it would matter what the students and taxpayers think. I can guarantee the American people would vote for convenience over safety.

Violence is a way of life. It always has been for the human race. People throw up metal detectors, people bring non-metallic weapons.
 
All well and good that 'blanket assumptions' are being made, but there must be some REASON as to WHY the United States does INDEED have the most prolific amounts of school shootings. And as much as I don't want to sound absurd or off-my-rocker for suggesting something like this, I think there may be a chance it's even something that is 'trendy' for lack of a better word. In this day and age in the USA it seems to be the flashy way to go out with a bang.
 
QUOTE (Dalriada @ Feb 18 2008, 01:19 PM)Sometimes, I even go on the foxnews website to see how they depicte the European news. It's always funny.

I tend to avoid Foxnews like the plague CNN is much better it's more professional.


QUOTE (Headswabby @ Feb 18 2008, 01:58 PM)Again, it won't happen. Since the construction and maintenance of metal detectors would be put on the taxpayers and students, it would matter what the students and taxpayers think. I can guarantee the American people would vote for convenience over safety.

I will be the first to acknowledge my idea is not a great solution, it is however the only way I can think off that will stop the current problem dead in its tracks. Like I said earlier I am aware such a plan will not be cheap to carry out and will cost the taxpayers a lot of money (I feel it should be the taxpayer who foots the bill not the student).

Being a foreigner I can only imagine the situation happening here. What would my reaction be if this scenario repeatedly occurred in British universities? I feel as a citizen of this country I would gladly pay the extra $200 tax a year if it meant that future students can go to university without fear of being attacked by some mad gunman. As this is an American problem however it only right that Americans make this decision. Is the extra tax money worth the peace of mind for future students? This a question that Americans need to address and no foreigner has the right to tell them what to do. It is also important to remember that these events are relatively rare in the big scheme of things a lot of the problem lies in the fear factor that surrounds this problem. A moral panic often occurs after such an incident where everyone expects the next gun man to be hiding round the corner.


QUOTE (Headswabby @ Feb 18 2008, 01:58 PM)Violence is a way of life. It always has been for the human race. People throw up metal detectors, people bring non-metallic weapons.

Violence occurs every where it is an unfortunate way of life. However many countries do not experience these high levels of gun crimes so why should Americans accept an inferior situation where levels of crime are unreasonable high? Sometimes it important to find out why certain countries (namely Canada) manage to keep their crime rates so low and take a leaf from their own book. If Canada can do it why can't America?
 
QUOTE (khael @ Feb 18 2008, 04:14 AM) On that allowing guns on campus, hey, someone could threaten/bully me and i'll shoot them and shout self-defense, then one of his friends or any other student with a gun might take action and then shoot me and shout, he's crazy he's going to kill us all self-defense etc. I don't think it'll make school any safer than tightening the security.
Well the right to carry a concealed weapon comes with having to register for the permit. To get that permit you have to go through a training course in my state. This makes sure you have the necessary marksmanship abilities and how you should act when carrying a concealed weapon. In the event you do shoot somebody the general rule is once you are sure you are safe, put down the gun, call the police, tell them what happened and where you have the gun sitting. Then you wait for the police.

Besides you might not even need to shoot somebody who is threatening you with violence. You could hold a gun on them with one hand and use the other to get your cell phone and call the police.

And most schools have decent security already. They can't be everyplace at once but they tend to have good response time and keep people informed of security issues.
 
QUOTE Well the right to carry a concealed weapon comes with having to register for the permit. To get that permit you have to go through a training course in my state. This makes sure you have the necessary marksmanship abilities and how you should act when carrying a concealed weapon.

Driving a car needs a driving licence (not an easy one here).
And yet, when I see how people drive... I think a gun-carrying permit would be a disaster.

Now, driving and carrying a gun are two different things, and people may be more respectful of rules in the US, but still...
 
I really hate this because it seems like Dalriada is getting picked on here... so first thing is first, I'm not trying to pick on you Dalriada, but you seem to be the only one bringing up any valid points to discuss... so in a way, take this as a compliment.

QUOTE Sometimes it important to find out why certain countries (namely Canada) manage to keep their crime rates so low and take a leaf from their own book. If Canada can do it why can't America?

See, there are some very big assumptions going on here. First off, although we are neighboring countries, we have extremely different societies. We can try to find out what they did, but that doesn't mean it will necessarily be applicable to American society. We can try to mold it into our own thing, but then we can't be sure it'll work anymore, because thats not what Canada did.

And as you have mentioned before, every country has its own pluses and minuses. Just because Canada can do it, does not mean America can do it.

I think everyone would love to see this go away, and I honestly don't think it has that much to do with gun culture. As overfiend mentioned, people seem to want to go out with a bang... sorry for the pun. This isn't about gun control in my eyes, because if it's not guns, then it's going to be something else. There is a severe socio-psychological problem with these people that no one seems to want to address.


QUOTE Well the right to carry a concealed weapon comes with having to register for the permit. To get that permit you have to go through a training course in my state.

I don't believe that is the law for every state. If it were though, I think it would definitely help with gun control.
 
By federal law, you must have a permit to buy a gun. Furthermore, you have to have a SECOND, separate permit (only valid in certain states) to be able to carry a concealed weapon (gun). This is true throughout the entire United States, not just state by state. Many states however have made it illegal ot carry a concealed weapon within that state.
 
QUOTE (Headswabby @ Feb 18 2008, 06:18 PM)See, there are some very big assumptions going on here. First off, although we are neighboring countries, we have extremely different societies. We can try to find out what they did, but that doesn't mean it will necessarily be applicable to American society. We can try to mold it into our own thing, but then we can't be sure it'll work anymore, because thats not what Canada did.

Yes I understand your point, Canada and America are too different cultures. I did not try and assume they share the same customs (they do not) it would be like saying a Scotsman and Englishman are the same. I know that this is clearly not the case and I assume it is the same for America and Canada.

The point I was trying to make is sometimes countries can learn to improve by copying the traits off another country. For example Britain has a problem with teen-pregnancy, we look at other countries and see they don't have the same problem. The question is then asked why does Britain have such high rates? We then look at what other countries do and try to adopt their practices. I understand that differences in other countries customs can make adoption difficult but if Americans are unwilling to either change their attitude (the real problem you suggested behind these shootings) and are also unwilling to pay for extra security to aid in gun prevention how are you going to solve the problem of school shootings?
 
I understand what you're getting at, and it is what should happen. We probably will try to adopt some kind of security measure to try to curb these shootings. I'm just saying I don't think theres a measure we can pull off that will change this. it's a behavior modification, and thats something that will just be treated on it's own. Change is inevitable. It will take care of itself. The problem is people don't like that answer, so we have to try and find ways to speed up that solution.

I'm not suggesting that there is a single cause for these shootings, because there isn't one. It's a large conglomerate of things that have created a monster. I will admit that this problem is bigger than anything I'd want to tackle.
 
School shootings... trying to prevent these cases?

You cannot really do much except wearing a bulletproof armour (If you scare) since in America certain people can buy guns. I recently watched a TV documentary programme about a state in America (can't remember the name) which those three hosts from Britian been threatened by the American gangs, somehow...
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QUOTE (overfiend1976 @ Feb 17 2008, 01:51 AM) Hardly. Canada has just as many guns per capita as the United States, yet their murder by firearm rate is pretty much nonexistent. People don't shoot people in Canada. People don't really lock their doors either.
People lock their doors in Canada. I have lived here for 20 years and to this day have never met anyone who doesn't lock their door. If you're going by Michael Moore's film, just, please stop saying that because it's not true. And the only people I've ever seen say it is true got it from his movie.

And people also get shot in Canada. Since 2008 began, there were 2 homicides within a week only blocks from where I go to school. And last year, a boy was shot in his highschool hallway. We certainly don't have it on the same level as the Americans, but gun violence is becoming a very popular issue in southern Ontario, especially Toronto - because we don't want to be like America. It's a generalization perhaps, but it's what people think. There are a lot of calls to ban handguns here. I believe Vancouver is seeing a similar rise in gun crime.


Also, I don't buy the argument that people should buy guns to protect themselves from gunmen. All it takes is someone trying to shoot that gunmen, missing, and harming even more innocent people. As for banning guns - no it won't stop the violence, but it's a lot harder to kill multiple people in a short time span with a knife than a gun, isn't it? You also need to be at a closer range.

Having special permits won't stop it either, because one of the homicides I mentioned above involved a gun the man bought legally. However, it may make it more difficult for people to have access to guns, or to get guns in such a short time span.
 
QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ Feb 19 2008, 10:50 AM) Also, I don't buy the argument that people should buy guns to protect themselves from gunmen. All it takes is someone trying to shoot that gunmen, missing, and harming even more innocent people. As for banning guns - no it won't stop the violence, but it's a lot harder to kill multiple people in a short time span with a knife than a gun, isn't it? You also need to be at a closer range.
I'll agree with that. I don't think giving out more and more guns will prevent gun violence. And think about it, have you ever heard about a public shooting in which a spectator just happened to be a well-armed professional, and was able to heroically take down the shooter before any more lives could be taken? It doesn't really happen, well over 90% of the time, these events are taken care of by police/security.

If gun distribution is very strictly limited, or even halted altogether, then yes, insane, extremely motivated, murderous fools could still get a hold of a gun, and still go on his foolish murderous rampage, but it really wouldn't affect the outcome at all. What it would do is make it infinitely more difficult to get a hold of a firearm, weed out any would-be shooters who wouldn't have ready access to a gun. The longer a gun ban would last, he fewer and fewer guns the people would have access to.

ay, guns are terrible things, designed solely for killing. A world without them would be far better than a world with them, in my opinion. But seeing as there are quite a few guns in this world... oy, I'm a big fan of getting rid of them. I don't see self-defense as a justifiable reason for owning a firearm.

But gun restrictions aside, a great way to prevent school shootings would be to improve the education system. On average, smart people don't do idiotic things (at least not to the extent an idiot would), such as going on foolish murderous rampages. bah! It's all disgusting.
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Such hatred out there...
 
QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ Feb 19 2008, 01:50 PM) People lock their doors in Canada. I have lived here for 20 years and to this day have never met anyone who doesn't lock their door. If you're going by Michael Moore's film, just, please stop saying that because it's not true. And the only people I've ever seen say it is true got it from his movie.
Errr. I was born in Halifax and I'm a Canadian citizen, so I'm fairly sure I have a right to make comments about Canada
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QUOTE (EggBeast @ Feb 19 2008, 12:52 PM)If gun distribution is very strictly limited, or even halted altogether, then yes, insane, extremely motivated, murderous fools could still get a hold of a gun, and still go on his foolish murderous rampage, but it really wouldn't affect the outcome at all. What it would do is make it infinitely more difficult to get a hold of a firearm, weed out any would-be shooters who wouldn't have ready access to a gun. The longer a gun ban would last, he fewer and fewer guns the people would have access to.

Yes and if you had numerous gun amnesties it would reduce the supply even further. The real problem is it really a realistic proposition? It seems more fantasy than reality. I agree with your point though the world would be a better place but I think they are here to stay.
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The question that needs to be asked is this. Is it easier to change peoples' behaviour (this appears to be the fundamental problem) or limit gun supply? To put it another way is it easier to make a drugy get rid of their addiction by changing their behaviour or removing their supply of drugs?
 
QUOTE (overfiend1976 @ Feb 19 2008, 03:44 PM) Errr. I was born in Halifax and I'm a Canadian citizen
Then it is merely a problem which has existed since Confederation - regional differences. Your statements do not reflect the Canada I live in, so I assumed you were making statements based on other arguments I've heard from non-Canadians. But I think it is wrong to give people the impression that all of Canada is like that - no one shooting people, and able to leave doors unlocked. It's a generalization to me and doesn't reflect those exact regional differences within the country.
 
QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ Feb 19 2008, 05:22 PM) Then it is merely a problem which has existed since Confederation - regional differences. Your statements do not reflect the Canada I live in, so I assumed you were making statements based on other arguments I've heard from non-Canadians. But I think it is wrong to give people the impression that all of Canada is like that - no one shooting people, and able to leave doors unlocked. It's a generalization to me and doesn't reflect those exact regional differences within the country.
Point well taken, sorry for the generalization.
 
Hmm...I Always wonder why in Europe it is so easy to get a gun. because in asia (Indonesia specifically) owning a gun is no easy matter at all. I can say that out of 20 people. only 1 (or 2 at most) have a gun. though sharp weapon is much more easier to find.

to stop the school shooting ? I believe a madman holding a gun is as easy to stop as a charging bull. and even if you also hold your own gun, what is the probabilities of your bullet somehow miss the attacker and blast hapless bystander instead ?

shooting a gun is not easy. even at a shooting range. and its not getting easier when your life and everybody around you is depend on a single bullet from the gun in your hand.

I kinda prefer a self defense martial arts to be taught at school. yes, you cannot beat a gun with a bare hand. but since this shooting almost always happen on close range, they have a chance. and you only need one courageous person before other guys will help you swarm the attacker. or so i though. since i never face a gun before anyway
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