The "N" Word

[dchaosblade]

The last 2 paragraphs of my post actually did follow roughly with the topic.

Why do people consider the "'N' word" (just say the damn word, we're using it for proper reasons, people are not going to get upset because of...oh...wait, thats right, you already are ~_~) a bad word? Because it is considered to be 'racist' (thus my rant about how 'racism' has been dealt with...with odd results). Let us consider the meaning of the word...it means black...it's aimed at black people...is it thus racist? Technically, yeah. Is it necessarily derogatory? Obviously not too much otherwise Black people wouldn't use it amongst them selves.

The word being bad is purely based upon it's use. If you USE it in a derogatory fashion it will be 'bad', if you use it in a friendly fashion (as blacks do amongst themselves) it isn't. You can't just pigeonhole every word into one specific meaning, one specific type.

Bitch is a noun - a female dog; particularly one used for breeding. Thus the phrase "son of a bitch". Is it always bad? Of course not. Sure, when I call some random person a bitch it's bad, but when I'm talking about my dog it isn't. When something happens to me and I mutter or yell "son of a bitch" it isn't derogatory, it's just an exclamation of surprise, disappointment, etc. You shouldn't be insulted because I dared to use the word; no more so than you should be insulted because anyone dares to use the word 'nigger'
A word means nothing more than it's use. That goes for EVERY word. As such, words can have various meanings, levels of insult, etc. Hell, you can even call someone a 'bitch' in a friendly/joking manner and people don't get insulted... Why should Nigger be any different? Let history be history, let people get over things, and let words be words.

 

[MegaB12DOTS5000mcg]

QUOTE (dchaosblade @ Jun 27 2009, 11:46 AM)1) Yes, I live in the States - Georgia to be precise.
2) I appreciate the fact that you don't trust me...

3)  I do not mean to say that everyone should go around calling each other nigger just for the hell of it.  It isn't appropriate.  That said, it also isn't the insult that everyone makes it out to be anymore.  It is by definition "black".  It was - for a time generations past - used in an insulting and derogatory manner.  It is still used by a minority of people in an insulting and derogatory manner.
That said, if you talk to me and my friends, you would find that there is more REVERSE discrimination (e.g. against whites) at least in my area than there is regular discrimination (e.g. against Blacks and Hispanics).  I don't really understand WHY it should be "Blacks can say the word whenever they want to each other but no one else can dare to say the word or else they'll get their asses kicked".  It just doesn't make sense to me.

All of this crap ended back in the 70's.  It's been almost 40 years...can't people get over it?


I will stress that I do not in any way support racism.  I just find that people - particularly White people from the States - take racism well and above how it should be taken.  It's like how a White kid with a 4.0 GPA and 5 AP courses can get denied from a college while a Black kid with a 2.6 GPA and no AP or even Honors classes gets accepted b/c the school needs to "fill it's quota".  If you ask me, THAT is racism.  Are you implying that Blacks aren't as intelligent as Whites, so they need to get special treatment and have rules relaxed?  Bullshit.

Bill Cosby (A Black actor/comedian) was right, Blacks need to get over themselves and stand up for themselves - not lamely sit back and take freebies and make excuses just because they're Black.  He certainly didn't   -.-



That just acts as more proof that they're simply trolling people trying to get a reaction - and very obviously succeeding.

That aside, the term 'slavedrive' isn't really a bad term...  Hell, when talking about computers, you have a master and a slave drive.  Employees often complain that their boss is 'slave driving them' - as in making them work hard for long shifts.  etc.  I think you're reading WAY deeper into it than you should...
If you think white people are an oppressed member of this society in anyway I don't know what to say. I think your incredibly wrong there. Poor white people (who have a lot in common with poor people of color) are oppressed yes because of class. But even at every level of class there is still privileges we receive with regard to housing/jobs/loans ect. We have wealth that has been passed down to us that black people might not have because of racism and systematic abuse (and weather people would like to admit it or not we may have earned some or much of that wealth from that very systemic abuse past and present). Racism is not over or dead. Its alive and well at an institutional level. Just because we have a black president or rich black people like Opera exist does not mean racism is over. And there are a fair amount of black people who disagree with Bill Cosby. Read "Is Bill Cosby Right" by Michael Eric Dyson for a good analysis on that.

I also honestly question what you said about colleges. Do you have a specific source from where you found that info by chance?

I'm going to post up the entire essay that I quoted earlier. The subject of the essay is internet hate speech (more specifically on social networking sites but still same thing) so I think it is relevant. Also I'd recommend you read more by this guy, he puts racism in perspective and speaks the truth on how not only it harms people of color but also white people. I think you might find him quite enlightening as I did.

Hope the mods won't mind the massive amounts of text.
I'd link to it but as I understand links are not enabled.
and for those who might say this essay goes off the topic of internet racism. Well, racism is racism and its all intertwined. We cannot just discuss internet racism without disusing it outside the internet or historically.



Mod note: to avoid copyright/legal issues, link added.

On White Pride and Other Delusions: Reflections on the Rage of the Uninformed
By Tim Wise
Mod's note: Try not to go off topic this thread is about the usage of the N word not who is opressed more or reverse discrimination.

 

[chiisai_hana]

QUOTE (MegaB12DOTS5000mcg @ Jun 27 2009, 07:23 PM) If you think white people are an oppressed member of this society in anyway I don't know what to say. I think your incredibly wrong there.
The way I'm reading it, it's not that white people are oppressed. It's that you're not doing anyone favours by constantly giving them a "free ride". Now, there is obviously a very fine line between when people need help, and when the help is hurting them. There is actually an argument out there right now that Developed Countries are harming Africa by sending monetary aid, because African governments rely on the aid and then sit back and do nothing to help improve their own condition. The same can potentially be argued for anyone in an identified under-privileged group. Their victim-mentality is constantly reinforced, they rely solely on support, and don't have the will to actually help improve their own lives beyond what support is capable of achieving. (It doesn't necessarily have to be African-Americans, this can apply to any population)

To go back to the example, if there's an African-American with a 4.0GPA who can't afford college, I'm sure most people would agree that they should receive the help they need to attend school. But, if the choice is between someone with a 4.0GPA who is white, or a 2.0GPA who is black, should the spot be given to the second person just because of their skin colour and an institutional quota? Or should it be decided based on merit?

(Apologies if I misunderstood as well, but that's another take on it in any event)


As for the use of the terms, the "N" word definitely has a historical connotation which is still too recent. We're not talking about a term used in the 1800s only - the civil rights movement, global human rights movements in general even, only took place in the 1960s. At most, it would only be 30-40 years since the term "officially" endorsed institutionalized racism. That's barely a generation, and not enough time to erase the memory. If we had this discussion in 100 years, it might not be such a big deal. I think this is why "slave" carries less of a negative connotation. Yes, African-Americans were enslaved but it's not recent memory and has become removed from our immediate society (add to that, African-Americans were not the only people in the world enslaved so it doesn't carry the same associational weight of only apply to one group of people).

I don't really feel like any of us have the right to even pass judgment on whether it's appropriate or not. Society is going to decide that, and currently the "N" word is not socially acceptable. And I don't think it will be any time soon. Yes, maybe one day we'll progress to a society where it carries less weight (perhaps even fall out of use before being "reinvented" like the term "gay" was) but in my opinion, it's far too early.

I don't even want to touch on inter-racial use. I know very few people who are black, so I don't really have any "authority" to speak on the issue. Though like anything, if it's within your group of friends and you all know the tone it's being used with - it's okay (in a sense). I mean, it's like girls going around calling each other sluts and whores - yes it's hurtful, especially if you don't know each other well and it's used as a put down. But, if the girls are best friends and know there's no harmful intent behind it, let them use it between themselves. I can imagine that a lot of black people are not okay with the term, so to generalize and say it's acceptable for use between any two black people doesn't seem right to me.

But even among friends, there's always the issue of the tone slipping back into its negative connotations. Friends don't always stay friends.

 

[senpai-kun]

QUOTE (dchaosblade @ Jun 27 2009, 04:27 PM)Is it necessarily derogatory?  Obviously not too much otherwise Black people wouldn't use it amongst them selves.

This will be my last post as far as discussion goes since I don't have the energy anymore to debate this topic.

You try and make the point that the N word isn't necessarily derogatory because... "Obviously not too much otherwise Black people wouldn't use it amongst them selves."

You do realize that there are MILLIONS of black americans who don't like it when black ppl use it amongst themselves right? It's just like you may have a neighbor that is the same race as yourself but does that mean you do and agree with the same things they do? No, of course not. What if he calls all his buddies crackers?

Definition of crackers from wiki (U.S.) A poor Appalachian or poor Southerner, a white person, first used in the 19th century.

Does that mean that the majority of white ppl call each other crackers? No, just like the majority of black ppl don't refer to each other as the N word. Would you be offended if a black person or any race said to you, "Hey what you up to cracker." That would not offend you in the least bit? Or replace the quote below from the site (that started this debate) with cracker instead of nigger. What if I decide to say this on my blog that you happen to come across and read.

Right now at this moment I’m being a cracker (a poor white person) sitting in starbucks and stealing their internet.

Now take into account that the term "cracker" doesn't hold the historical derogatory weight of the term nigger - being owned against your will by another man, being sold like you're property, and beaten with whips if you didn't tend to the fields, and the list goes on and on. These are meanings of the N word associated with black ppl. Plz don't try and tell me that the term only means "black." PPL don't use the N word in that context in America. They certainly don't use the N word to say "Hey black person." If they simply want to refer to a black person they say either African American or black person (or the preferable choice their actual name).

Even if you say, "so what," I don't care if someone calls me a cracker or mocks ppl of my race using that term, okay that's fine. That doesn't change the fact that millions of black ppl don't like the usage of the N word. They share a very negative history w/their ancestors in regards to that word that you don't. And your still going to say to them they're just words? To the millions of blacks who don't use that word period. You will tell them that obviously it's not derogatory because some of your people say it to each other? (your words/reasoning)

Sorry my friend you can try and downplay the significance of the N word by saying 'let words be words' because some words carry a negative historical impact that it takes possibly hundreds of years to be totally forgotten. To pretend that we're already at that point is just plain and simply false. That word still burns deep for millions of people.

Mod's note: You guys need to follow the rules because continous off-topic discussion will result in this thread being closed by a moderator. Find the appropriate thread for your discussion points or make a new thread if it doesn't currently exist.

 

[mamori]

it is fascinating to see just how uncomfortable such a word makes people feel. after all, im sure the majority of us have been taught judging one by their race is ignorant, if not with the added stigma of it being "evil." I think this may bve in part why we react so strongly to terms such as "nigger," because it's identifying the person ONLY by their race, which we have been taught in itself means nothing of that person (ethnicity is another issue, as it includes cultural teachings), particularly in america where everyone is so hyper-individualistic and a strong belief in meritocracy reigns supreme (as false a belief as it may be).

 

[MegaB12DOTS5000mcg]

I'd say senpai-kun is on point with that last post. Really couldn't have said it better.
Hopefully the essay I posted wasn't taken as off topic. I don't see it as off topic at all but can't stop mods from taking it that way. I mean, I know why it was but I believe we need to go into history and make certain other connections in order to help people understand things on a deeper level. If that makes any sense

Not trying to disregard rules or disrespect any mods!

As for the word cracker, I have actually been told by a few that it was also a term worn as a badge of honor by slaver owners at one point. So another definition might be that of a racist oppressor. I am no etymology expert though. And I currently don't have a source of info to verify that. I'll see if I can research that later.

QUOTE (chiisai_hana @ Jun 27 2009, 06:56 PM)The way I'm reading it, it's not that white people are oppressed. It's that you're not doing anyone favours by constantly giving them a "free ride". Now, there is obviously a very fine line between when people need help, and when the help is hurting them. There is actually an argument out there right now that Developed Countries are harming Africa by sending monetary aid, because African governments rely on the aid and then sit back and do nothing to help improve their own condition. The same can potentially be argued for anyone in an identified under-privileged group. Their victim-mentality is constantly reinforced, they rely solely on support, and don't have the will to actually help improve their own lives beyond what support is capable of achieving. (It doesn't necessarily have to be African-Americans, this can apply to any population)

To go back to the example, if there's an African-American with a 4.0GPA who can't afford college, I'm sure most people would agree that they should receive the help they need to attend school. But, if the choice is between someone with a 4.0GPA who is white, or a 2.0GPA who is black, should the spot be given to the second person just because of their skin colour and an institutional quota? Or should it be decided based on merit?
.

This is probably considered off topic so I won't say much about it here..but this is an affirmative action debate. There is literature on this issue of institutionalized racism and affirmative action. For those that care I'd say read up on it. The author I quoted (Tim Wise) has a good book and some speeches on that subject (if you google him and find his site he has HUNDREDS of amazing essays to read and he is on youtube). The knowledge is out there for those who seek it. Ok thats that on that subject. Please no locks ^^

 

[mamori]

lol, just had to add this from the latest "answerman" from ANN. which seems all to relevant to this discussion.

QUOTE Much like my thoughts on the current Iranian demonstrators, I, as a coddled white guy living in the US, cannot speak on behalf of the mores and moral decisions of another country.

However, as a coddled white guy posting on the internet, I will do so anyway.

 

[JC-HoBz]

Well, from that vid the Coalguys had with K-On! which i downloaded thinking it was an anime, if that guy is in the Coalguys fansub team, then i'm pretty sure they do have black people in the group.

But seriously, if you are willing to stop downloading from them and getting others to stop, would you do the same for music, movies and tv shows?

Alot of movies and music use the word nigger. Tbh, as long as they don't say it in a racist kind of way i don't really care, and i also probably wouldn't care that much if they did say it in a racist way. It's the Internet.

I'm Asian, and i don't really care if people call me gook. It's not like i'm going to cut myself because someone said something racist.

Well i guess it's partly because i'm from Australia and we aussies don't really give a fuck. There is racism everywhere, and yes, i have been racist before, and i'm sure everyone has been racist.

 

[MegaB12DOTS5000mcg]

QUOTE (JC-HoBz @ Jun 30 2009, 12:02 AM)Well, from that vid the Coalguys had with K-On! which i downloaded thinking it was an anime, if that guy is in the Coalguys fansub team, then i'm pretty sure they do have black people in the group.

But seriously, if you are willing to stop downloading from them and getting others to stop, would you do the same for music, movies and tv shows?

Alot of movies and music use the word nigger. Tbh, as long as they don't say it in a racist kind of way i don't really care, and i also probably wouldn't care that much if they did say it in a racist way. It's the Internet.

I'm Asian, and i don't really care if people call me gook. It's not like i'm going to cut myself because someone said something racist.

Well i guess it's partly because i'm from Australia and we aussies don't really give a fuck. There is racism everywhere, and yes, i have been racist before, and i'm sure everyone has been racist.
That dude in the video is not a member of coalguys.

Yes I am willing to do the same for a lot of music, movies and tv shows. (I'm no activist or anything (as an activist would be doing much more to promote real change than I'm doing just sitting on my ass on a computer) at all but I'm just saying I won't watch stuff and encourage others not to also) Thats one reason I don't go to the movies much or why I end up watching foreign (I'm from the US) films instead. And yeah those can be just as bad of course but often aren't nearly as terrible as Hollywood. As for TV, I haven't watched it in years. Sometimes I'll watch a show here and there on the net though. I think there is just a lot of dumb stuff out there that really lacks any genuine creativity. In comedy for example, racist humor is something I see used over and over again and its the SAME stuff I've heard all my life. Same jokes and stereotypes over and over. I'm willing to bet we all know them too. Its just unfunny and uncreative to me.

Again the point we are trying to make here is there is no non-racist way to use the word. Anyone who thinks that way is kidding themselves. I believe that to be a fact that I can say whether I'm black or not. And I don't believe it has to be explained again because it already has been explained above more than once. Anybody who is still confused should read the link to the essay I posted too.

mamori, you know Its one thing to try to rudely speak for other people or whatever but then its another thing to actually speak up when somebody is clearly doing something wrong to your fellow man (who live in the same country as me by the way).


My point is basically do we let somebody act like this without giving them hell? Or do we sit by quietly. The coalguys are not so separate from us since we watch there fansubs (well least I have been since I love K-on...until now). We consume their product you could say. I mean the behavior they are displaying is disgusting. And I still seriously doubt their black. But even if they are, or some of them are, or whatever, that doesn't make what we are seeing here OK. What we are seeing is this gratuitous(well any usage at all is not ok to me) use of the word nigger and also seeing how uncaring most everybody is on the coalguys website (only a few people on their site left angry comments) and even here and else where. On youtube people are doing the same thing. They just think its funny and are trying to say oh nigger isn't really a bad word and oh maybe they didn't mean it in a bad way and all this nonsense. This is a reflection of REAL LIFE too. I see it all the time. Racism is everywhere in so many forms. Its more covert now than in the past (again, except to its recipients) but you see its also quite overt too.....even THIS word from a time when everybody would agree that racism was DEFINITELY alive and well can be thrown around and really hardly anyone cares as we are seeing here. I heard a white guy the other day call black people COLORED instead of black, and he felt there was nothing wrong with that (nice to know in that same conversation that he was talking about training to become a police officer). This type of crap is wide spread. Once I asked that my own father not make racist jokes around me anymore and he actually got really angry at me and stopped speaking to me for almost an entire day. When I tried to explain why I thought it was wrong he just started yelling and interrupting me like bill o'reilly or something. When I am among groups of other white people they always feel like its ok to make racist jokes and say racial slurs as If I'm going to be ok with it because I am white too. Then the few times I call them out, they almost never fail to act like I am being over sensitive or crazy. So yeah I think this is a reflection of daily life on some level. And yeah I know real racism (like institutionalized racism) goes way beyond internet drama but even in our little online worlds I still think we should speak out against it and have rules forbidding it. There are still real people behind these computer screens, right?

I actually tried to bring this up on another forum. Won't mention the name but they have many many links to fansub torrents (aaaaaand ok so the Japanese word for "like" might be in their name). They (or I guess some mod) immediately deleted my post and then PMed me a warning. I pointed out that they have rules against "offensive" content and behavior yet their site currently has torrent links to fansubs subbed by such groups as "[moe-nigga]" and "[kkk-nigga]" but somehow my post was inappropriate or possibly offensive. Yeah....OK.....

You know Micheal Richards probably just meant it in a nice way. Or maybe he meant it in an non-racist way. Or maybe just before he got on stage that night, his black friends told him it was cool. Yeah thats it. So all the people in the audience who got mad at him where just too sensitive/taking it the wrong way/crazy....because you know, words are just words and all. Yeah and the white people who where outraged, well they really should have waited till black people got mad just encase it was somehow totally cool for a white guy to scream nigger at the top of his lungs over and over at them. Yeah thats it

Racism, as it is today, is called "Colorblind Racism" or "Racism 2.0." Look it up and have a great day/night everybody.

 

[mamori]

no need to lecture us on racism my friend, im a sociology major after all. the point that many are trying to make is that a word is only word unless you make more of it. again, as a coddled white american I've been trained by society to think such a word is "bad," just as i've been trained to believe nudity is "bad." however, perception changes, words change. lol, even your perception that this fansubbing group can't possibly have black people in it is racist i hope you understand, "an entity on the internet? MUST be a white male." THAT my friend is white as a the non-race, ie: white seen as the default race. if a group of black fansubbers (despite your unfounded doubts) wants to become part of the movement to "reclaim" the word, then so be it.

in any event, feel free not to take advantage of their free service.

*i could go into racism, historical racism, and classism, but that would be off-topic for this thread

 

[khael]

Considering that language is dynamic as it is, it's not surprising that certain speech communities use the word under a positive connotation. I think someone referred to "Negritude" or black pride?

I'd like to point out a word. "Faggot." IIRC, it used to pertain to firewood or something similar. Throughout time it evolved and turned into a slur against homosexuals [depending on context]. This is an example of how the meaning of a word can change through time. As for context, I'm no expert in pragmatics but i think that is pretty obvious.

Please don't forget about context. I've read from some comments here that the word is totally, absolutely a slur, no matter what the context. Linguistically speaking i disagree to that.

 

[MegaB12DOTS5000mcg]

khael-dono in what context is it not?

QUOTE (mamori @ Jun 30 2009, 09:09 AM)no need to lecture us on racism my friend, im a sociology major after all.  the point that many are trying to make is that a word is only word unless you make more of it.  again, as a coddled white american I've been trained by society to think such a word is "bad," just as i've been trained to believe nudity is "bad."  however, perception changes, words change.  lol, even your perception that this fansubbing group can't possibly have black people in it is racist i hope you understand, "an entity on the internet? MUST be a white male."  THAT my friend is white as a the non-race, ie: white seen as the default race.  if a group of black fansubbers (despite your unfounded doubts) wants to become part of the movement to "reclaim" the word, then so be it.

in any event, feel free not to take advantage of their free service.

*i could go into racism, historical racism, and classism, but that would be off-topic for this thread
A word is only a word. OK. So I can walk up to a black person and say this word to them and it should be totally acceptable and they shouldn't get mad. Gotcha............



..........I don't think its impossible for some or all the coalguys to be black. I just think its highly unlikely since the behavior they are displaying is usually (was originally and has most often past and present) been that of a racist white male's (AND as I pointed out, supposedly non-racist white people who THINK its all just a funny joke). That is why I think its highly unlikely but yes I could be wrong. Its a crazy world.

Again, racist rich white oppressors invented that word and used it as they went about systematically abusing, exploiting, raping and murdering Black/African people for centuries, don't forget that. And don't forget the effects of the past carry over to the present which is why racism is not dead and why the word is bad/evil/mean/hurtful.

Really in order to really see what I am saying, people would have to start researching, reading and thinking about racism and its history. I know most people won't take the time to do that even though they easily could. But I'm trying my best here......perhaps by now wasting my time.

 

[Dalriada]

QUOTE (MegaB12DOTS5000mcg @ Jul 01 2009, 07:11 PM)
Really in order to really see what I am saying, people would have to start researching, reading and thinking about racism and its history. I know most people won't take the time to do that even though they easily could. But I'm trying my best here......perhaps by now wasting my time.
Oh please, don't assume that because some people think differently than you, it's because they're uneducated morons.
It's a bit... tiring.

 

[mamori]

tiring indeed. especially when you think you know more than a sociology major who has studied these type of issues in-depth for a large portion of my time for the last two years. i respect the work that has gone into the study of modern racism, especially the new covert racism. the problem of course with this approach is that the issues it tries to address seems to on ALL points arise from CLASSISM, and not specifically racism, at least not as the major factor.

Even more, you fail to see the ways in which words change over time. Just because the word (derived from "Negro," or "Black") was at one time used in a derogatory way does not mean that it always carries that meaning. In contemporary usage it is often not used in derogatory ways, as simply used to refer to a black person in various ways. Of course people still use it in a derogatory way, but that does not mean it becomes a forbidden word only uttered by the racists. Words evolve with the way people use them, and this word has done just that.

 

[senpai-kun]

-Thread officially closed-

Reason:
Multiple warnings for off-topicness, discussion of subjects unrelated to the topic, single posts just to complain about having their intelligence questioned (w/out discussing the topic at all)

The racial toned comic that was posted which was directly against the thoughtful section rules. This thread has become "tiring indeed" to moderate.