QUOTE hmm, I don't know if "simple" is the right word to describe it. It's all good and well to put things simply, and leave it at that, but you've got to realize this is reality we're talking about, the vast expanse that is everything and nothing combined. We don't live in a magical world with clean-cut rules and definitions, this isn't mathematics or science, were we make our own definitions and assumptions to rely on.
First of all, you have made a statement that is logically unsustainable – I feel certain you can find that above. Having suggested earlier that logical contradictions are related to subjective elements of the world I suppose you are expressing a purely subjective statement with regards to the world. So, in reality, the world is in fact objectively viewable – those that are not sure about this are simply confused. I also mentioned previously, that it is necessary to “take a step backâ€. You don’t seem to have grasped what I mean by that. A true philosopher is one that is able to distinguish between the objective and the subjective and try and accommodate both in one body. A true philosopher is also one that realizes the limitations of his/her own mind and its ability to comprehend various viewpoints. It takes time and experience to understand different points of view. You have to meet people with perspectives that you could not conceive of yourself to realize how limited your own mind is.
Furthermore – there is an objective reality. Subjective reality is our interpretation of that objective reality. (Although I am aware that assumptions are dangerous in the world of Philosophy I am here trying to rationalize things so please bear with me >.< - I will make unstated assumptions and I am sure if someone is bothered, they will be able to use them against me). If we take what I said earlier and try to synthesize the objective and the subjective, then we can show that they are both very real and can work together. Objective reality is the foundation – the basis for all of our existence (something we will come to in a moment). Subjective reality is what we make of this objective reality. It may be the case that we are never aware of what objective reality actually is, but we have our subjective reality which is our personal interpretation of that objective reality. We are all unique and we have our own interpretations. Please try and understand this! There is an answer to philosophical questioning and problems, but the answer is beyond our capacity to understand and experience. Therefore, it could be said that no philosophical question can ever be satisfactorily answered.
QUOTE Take heed that the main thorn in our side here is that we have no defintion for existence. Since we've all gone through life's experiences and learned whatever the crap it is we learn, we just kind of... "understand" what we mean when we talk about things like reality and existence... but when we try to actually define it, we realize that it's really quite the task. There are so many possible ways to explain our reality (ie the matrix-esque explanation, the "we're all the figment of someone's imagination" explanation, the "I am the only 'real' person, and I'm in some funky super-experiment created by super-aliens" explanation, all that crap), and they all equate to the exact same life experiences or us. When we define "non-existence" as "that which doesn't exist", we're really saying nothing at all. If we don't know what existence is, then how do we know what not existing is ? That's why one can't really make an objective explanation without leaving serious holes in the argument. Our lives, as we know them, are completely subjective. We can only learn from what we experience and then try to make some sort of connection between those things in our head. Of course, objectivity is great and all, it's what helps us all stay sane (I think that's the exact point you were trying to make), but it doesn't make things "simple" in any way, shape, or form, it only gives the illusion (oOoOoOoOhHhOoOoO!!!) of simplicity.
The definition of existence, is what is written in a dictionary. E.g. There is no universally accepted theory as to what the word "existence" means. Literally, it means "standing out" or "appearing"(Wikipedia).
So, having said that there is no universally accepted theory as to what the word existence means, there is in fact a definition! So, if you can just wrap your head around the words then you have your definition of existence. There is no clear definition until you have decided for yourself what existence is. It is upon you to decide what existence is. It is generally accepted however that existing is basically “to beâ€. Simple.
The fact that you are existing this moment is evidence that you already understand what existing is. You are taking a step back where you need to just go with the flow and take heed of your subjective experience. Existence is objective in respect to the fact that it is the same in all subjective cases. We all “are†so in that sense we all know what it means to exist. Existence is such a basic idea (simple) that we can’t strip it down to something more explicit. It is a huge limitation on my part that I don’t understand why you can’t “see the light†so to speak in this situation.
QUOTE And touching a bit more on the idea of non-existence, ever since I really thought about what it would be to simply not exist after dying (waaaay back in high school there...) I actually found the idea very comforting. Even more comforting than the idea of an afterlife. The idea of living forever sounds... depressing... confining... maddening... in a way.
That’s totally understandable. One day it would be nice for everything to just end, and for there to be absolute nothingness. On the other hand, an afterlife – an eternal life – can be taken advantage of. You would have the means to achieve anything and everything. The time we have in this life is short, so we have to do all that we can in the 80 – 100 years we might live. That is the reason why many people find the idea of death very comforting – no more needs to be done – we can “rest†lol. But, like I said – I think that there is a massive potential upside of having an eternal life.
QUOTE But even so, as of late, even though I don't really go for the traditional idea of an afterlife, I'm not really so convinced of the traditional idea of not existing anymore either. I mean, yeah, there's always the chance that at any given second we'll awaken from our "divine virtual reality machine" in some "divine super-mall" inside of some form of "super-reality", but I'm not really talking about those weird theories here. Think of it this way, before I was born, I didn't exist. But then BANG!!! I was born, instant existence!!! After I die, BAAMM!!! no more existing for EggBeast! I go back to that state of non-existence again, yes? If the only requirement for coming into existence is to have been in a state of non-existence, then hey, who's there to smack me in the face and call me a madman for saying that I may one day "become" some sort of self-aware being? (well, I can think of 6 some-odd billion or so who would smack me for it, but that's beside the point! ) It wouldn't be like some "soul" leaving a dead body, having it's "memory" wiped and then entering into the body of some "ferret". No, it would just... "happen" (I use quotes because defining "happen" requires the definition of "exist" and no one knows that that means yet.)
Lol! What you speak is perfectly feasible. And speaking from a philosophical angle, its totally not crazy man. Its totally acceptable in fact – but yah, out there in the real world, you would get a smack hehe.
QUOTE Don't get me wrong here, I haven't suddenly turned into a reincarnation fanboy here, I'm still fairly certain of the "permanent non-existence" theory (it is, after all, a very comforting idea to me), but that in no way makes it the "truth" (dang, truth is even harder to define. when you think about it, it's really just some vague, abstract idea, even more so than "reality").
Ahh, again with the uncertainty of definitions. Just accept one and get on with life – but of course the exercise of thinking about it for fun is ok – its just when you start to think too much (then I am supposed to start saying how its gonna mess with your life, but blah blah blah – u know the drill).
QUOTE It can be very fun brain-food to munch on, though .
Ahhh, but food goes off when you leave it around too long…….
QUOTE And just touching a bit on Occam's razor... the idea is applied in every form of science nowadays. In most every physics book you pick up, it explains that the ultimate goal of physics is to be able to explain every occurrence in the universe using one or two basic, fundamental laws. I think that's a great idea, myself, it would mean that we live in a sane world after all, but it's really no more than wishful thinking of the side of we humans, based off of nothing more than our basic intuition to make connections between the different things we experience. And even if someday we discover some sort of sub-matter that only does one thing, and explains everything we experience in the world, that would rock and all, and we'd theoretically be able to use it to predict the things we cannot yet experience (like.. I dunno... non-existence maybe? maybe not...), but without being able to test those predictions, they too, become nothing more than wishful thinking on our part.
But there's nothing wrong with wishful thinking, so long as you're obviously not deluding yourself (I'm not even going to touch on how abstract the idea of being "delusional" is... dang! Xp)
Oh no you didn’t just do what you just did *shakes head*. So indulging in (practically useless) mental exercises of philosophy are ok, but indulging in concepts that potentially could solve the world’s problems is delusional? Seriously man, I kinda find that so hard to understand that I feel pretty stupid. And I hate the whole science VS Philosophy thing that people seem to suggest when arguing – it’s a load of Bull-crap.
Just because science uses a philosophical concept it doesn’t make it a bad idea – it’s a freaking awesome idea, and one that seems to work! And should we take the philosophical ideas that do make sense and put them to practical use? What is the purpose of philosophy but not to find a complete explanation to our life and how to live our life and how to do so in the best way?
QUOTE When our mind cannot tell what is reality and what is fiction, things that happen in fiction can become reality, I'm not saying that it your arm rips off in a dream and you think it's reality your arm will rip off in real life, but there is a possiblility that you will feel the pain, ever for a split second, this has happened to me several times, when the mind thinks' that the body is damage, it will even damage it; itself.
Yah - dreams are a colourful representation of things that are going on in your life. It is possible (and I thought about this A LOT) that we live in parallel realities. When we go to sleep in one reality we live our lives in the other realities. But, the explanation for you pain is probably self-inflicted when you move in your sleep. I have dreamt that my arm has been chopped off, and when I woke up I couldn't feel my arm - it was basically because it had gone numb from applying pressure on it with my body! The nerve was pressed on so the impulses weren't going there lol. Sometimes we wake up feeling pain randomly in our body, and those are usually due to muscle spasms during sleep or possibly during bone damage that took place during the day and was unnoticed. Then during sleep (maybe in an awkward position) the damage reaches a nerve ending and BOOM - PAIN!!! lol.
But yah, I really do think that the multiple realities (or maybe multiverse thing....) could be the reason! And maybe like the alternate realities mix sometimes - that would be pretty intriguing.
QUOTE Mind-tripping stuff, isn't it? It just goes to show how subjective reality is. When you enter a dream so real, you feel like you're actually living in it, how are you to tell it's not actually "real"? Who's to say you're not dreaming right now? How would you know the difference?
Dreams have a source. What is that source? Answer: reality. So yah, even if we cant distinguish, we can never be always dreaming. And I know that we can think of a super-computer as the source (matrix lalala). But yah, basically you get the point. Also, when dreaming, and when awake – there is a difference. Awake state has more continuity – dreams are EXTREMELY discontinuous.
QUOTE And what's with this truth we hear so much about? Most people I've talked to say that they believe there is some "truth" somewhere out there in the universe. Something that they can't truly comprehend with their limited wisdom and understanding, but a Truth nonetheless.
Truth – u really wanna talk about truth don’t you! Well – a quick answer would be “mathsâ€. 1 + 1 = 2. That is a truth.
QUOTE Don't get me wrong, I think it's great when people search for some truth in their lives, but when they take that truth as an absolute and use it as a basis of discrimination and hatred against others (The Inquisition, perhaps?), they totally forget what world it is they're living in. Now you can't forget just how subjective reality is here, and when you keep that in mind, you realize that any "truth" ANYONE may have found in their lives is based off of their own desires. In a world where no one can know ANYTHING for sure, any kind of "truth" that may have been found is based off of no more than a leap of faith on the part of the individual, which in no way makes it "true". What strange and abstract concepts humans come up with!
Lol! Yah, it is weird how we come up with loads of concepts and force them onto people. But essentially, you have to look at where the word truth comes from. It comes from various ideas: honesty, goodness, etc. The truth is supposed to be what is “right†at the time the truth is revealed. So truth is itself an ever-changing concept – it changes according to the evidence that exists. There is no absoluteness when it comes to subjective concepts.
In simple terms – everyone has their own opinion.
(Ahhhh, I like to argue, so please - i am purposely chucking you a can of worms to open - so get cracking!!! ARGH! lol - i know i am flawed in many of my arguments - because i aint perfect!) lol
First of all, you have made a statement that is logically unsustainable – I feel certain you can find that above. Having suggested earlier that logical contradictions are related to subjective elements of the world I suppose you are expressing a purely subjective statement with regards to the world. So, in reality, the world is in fact objectively viewable – those that are not sure about this are simply confused. I also mentioned previously, that it is necessary to “take a step backâ€. You don’t seem to have grasped what I mean by that. A true philosopher is one that is able to distinguish between the objective and the subjective and try and accommodate both in one body. A true philosopher is also one that realizes the limitations of his/her own mind and its ability to comprehend various viewpoints. It takes time and experience to understand different points of view. You have to meet people with perspectives that you could not conceive of yourself to realize how limited your own mind is.
Furthermore – there is an objective reality. Subjective reality is our interpretation of that objective reality. (Although I am aware that assumptions are dangerous in the world of Philosophy I am here trying to rationalize things so please bear with me >.< - I will make unstated assumptions and I am sure if someone is bothered, they will be able to use them against me). If we take what I said earlier and try to synthesize the objective and the subjective, then we can show that they are both very real and can work together. Objective reality is the foundation – the basis for all of our existence (something we will come to in a moment). Subjective reality is what we make of this objective reality. It may be the case that we are never aware of what objective reality actually is, but we have our subjective reality which is our personal interpretation of that objective reality. We are all unique and we have our own interpretations. Please try and understand this! There is an answer to philosophical questioning and problems, but the answer is beyond our capacity to understand and experience. Therefore, it could be said that no philosophical question can ever be satisfactorily answered.
QUOTE Take heed that the main thorn in our side here is that we have no defintion for existence. Since we've all gone through life's experiences and learned whatever the crap it is we learn, we just kind of... "understand" what we mean when we talk about things like reality and existence... but when we try to actually define it, we realize that it's really quite the task. There are so many possible ways to explain our reality (ie the matrix-esque explanation, the "we're all the figment of someone's imagination" explanation, the "I am the only 'real' person, and I'm in some funky super-experiment created by super-aliens" explanation, all that crap), and they all equate to the exact same life experiences or us. When we define "non-existence" as "that which doesn't exist", we're really saying nothing at all. If we don't know what existence is, then how do we know what not existing is ? That's why one can't really make an objective explanation without leaving serious holes in the argument. Our lives, as we know them, are completely subjective. We can only learn from what we experience and then try to make some sort of connection between those things in our head. Of course, objectivity is great and all, it's what helps us all stay sane (I think that's the exact point you were trying to make), but it doesn't make things "simple" in any way, shape, or form, it only gives the illusion (oOoOoOoOhHhOoOoO!!!) of simplicity.
The definition of existence, is what is written in a dictionary. E.g. There is no universally accepted theory as to what the word "existence" means. Literally, it means "standing out" or "appearing"(Wikipedia).
So, having said that there is no universally accepted theory as to what the word existence means, there is in fact a definition! So, if you can just wrap your head around the words then you have your definition of existence. There is no clear definition until you have decided for yourself what existence is. It is upon you to decide what existence is. It is generally accepted however that existing is basically “to beâ€. Simple.
The fact that you are existing this moment is evidence that you already understand what existing is. You are taking a step back where you need to just go with the flow and take heed of your subjective experience. Existence is objective in respect to the fact that it is the same in all subjective cases. We all “are†so in that sense we all know what it means to exist. Existence is such a basic idea (simple) that we can’t strip it down to something more explicit. It is a huge limitation on my part that I don’t understand why you can’t “see the light†so to speak in this situation.
QUOTE And touching a bit more on the idea of non-existence, ever since I really thought about what it would be to simply not exist after dying (waaaay back in high school there...) I actually found the idea very comforting. Even more comforting than the idea of an afterlife. The idea of living forever sounds... depressing... confining... maddening... in a way.
That’s totally understandable. One day it would be nice for everything to just end, and for there to be absolute nothingness. On the other hand, an afterlife – an eternal life – can be taken advantage of. You would have the means to achieve anything and everything. The time we have in this life is short, so we have to do all that we can in the 80 – 100 years we might live. That is the reason why many people find the idea of death very comforting – no more needs to be done – we can “rest†lol. But, like I said – I think that there is a massive potential upside of having an eternal life.
QUOTE But even so, as of late, even though I don't really go for the traditional idea of an afterlife, I'm not really so convinced of the traditional idea of not existing anymore either. I mean, yeah, there's always the chance that at any given second we'll awaken from our "divine virtual reality machine" in some "divine super-mall" inside of some form of "super-reality", but I'm not really talking about those weird theories here. Think of it this way, before I was born, I didn't exist. But then BANG!!! I was born, instant existence!!! After I die, BAAMM!!! no more existing for EggBeast! I go back to that state of non-existence again, yes? If the only requirement for coming into existence is to have been in a state of non-existence, then hey, who's there to smack me in the face and call me a madman for saying that I may one day "become" some sort of self-aware being? (well, I can think of 6 some-odd billion or so who would smack me for it, but that's beside the point! ) It wouldn't be like some "soul" leaving a dead body, having it's "memory" wiped and then entering into the body of some "ferret". No, it would just... "happen" (I use quotes because defining "happen" requires the definition of "exist" and no one knows that that means yet.)
Lol! What you speak is perfectly feasible. And speaking from a philosophical angle, its totally not crazy man. Its totally acceptable in fact – but yah, out there in the real world, you would get a smack hehe.
QUOTE Don't get me wrong here, I haven't suddenly turned into a reincarnation fanboy here, I'm still fairly certain of the "permanent non-existence" theory (it is, after all, a very comforting idea to me), but that in no way makes it the "truth" (dang, truth is even harder to define. when you think about it, it's really just some vague, abstract idea, even more so than "reality").
Ahh, again with the uncertainty of definitions. Just accept one and get on with life – but of course the exercise of thinking about it for fun is ok – its just when you start to think too much (then I am supposed to start saying how its gonna mess with your life, but blah blah blah – u know the drill).
QUOTE It can be very fun brain-food to munch on, though .
Ahhh, but food goes off when you leave it around too long…….
QUOTE And just touching a bit on Occam's razor... the idea is applied in every form of science nowadays. In most every physics book you pick up, it explains that the ultimate goal of physics is to be able to explain every occurrence in the universe using one or two basic, fundamental laws. I think that's a great idea, myself, it would mean that we live in a sane world after all, but it's really no more than wishful thinking of the side of we humans, based off of nothing more than our basic intuition to make connections between the different things we experience. And even if someday we discover some sort of sub-matter that only does one thing, and explains everything we experience in the world, that would rock and all, and we'd theoretically be able to use it to predict the things we cannot yet experience (like.. I dunno... non-existence maybe? maybe not...), but without being able to test those predictions, they too, become nothing more than wishful thinking on our part.
But there's nothing wrong with wishful thinking, so long as you're obviously not deluding yourself (I'm not even going to touch on how abstract the idea of being "delusional" is... dang! Xp)
Oh no you didn’t just do what you just did *shakes head*. So indulging in (practically useless) mental exercises of philosophy are ok, but indulging in concepts that potentially could solve the world’s problems is delusional? Seriously man, I kinda find that so hard to understand that I feel pretty stupid. And I hate the whole science VS Philosophy thing that people seem to suggest when arguing – it’s a load of Bull-crap.
Just because science uses a philosophical concept it doesn’t make it a bad idea – it’s a freaking awesome idea, and one that seems to work! And should we take the philosophical ideas that do make sense and put them to practical use? What is the purpose of philosophy but not to find a complete explanation to our life and how to live our life and how to do so in the best way?
QUOTE When our mind cannot tell what is reality and what is fiction, things that happen in fiction can become reality, I'm not saying that it your arm rips off in a dream and you think it's reality your arm will rip off in real life, but there is a possiblility that you will feel the pain, ever for a split second, this has happened to me several times, when the mind thinks' that the body is damage, it will even damage it; itself.
Yah - dreams are a colourful representation of things that are going on in your life. It is possible (and I thought about this A LOT) that we live in parallel realities. When we go to sleep in one reality we live our lives in the other realities. But, the explanation for you pain is probably self-inflicted when you move in your sleep. I have dreamt that my arm has been chopped off, and when I woke up I couldn't feel my arm - it was basically because it had gone numb from applying pressure on it with my body! The nerve was pressed on so the impulses weren't going there lol. Sometimes we wake up feeling pain randomly in our body, and those are usually due to muscle spasms during sleep or possibly during bone damage that took place during the day and was unnoticed. Then during sleep (maybe in an awkward position) the damage reaches a nerve ending and BOOM - PAIN!!! lol.
But yah, I really do think that the multiple realities (or maybe multiverse thing....) could be the reason! And maybe like the alternate realities mix sometimes - that would be pretty intriguing.
QUOTE Mind-tripping stuff, isn't it? It just goes to show how subjective reality is. When you enter a dream so real, you feel like you're actually living in it, how are you to tell it's not actually "real"? Who's to say you're not dreaming right now? How would you know the difference?
Dreams have a source. What is that source? Answer: reality. So yah, even if we cant distinguish, we can never be always dreaming. And I know that we can think of a super-computer as the source (matrix lalala). But yah, basically you get the point. Also, when dreaming, and when awake – there is a difference. Awake state has more continuity – dreams are EXTREMELY discontinuous.
QUOTE And what's with this truth we hear so much about? Most people I've talked to say that they believe there is some "truth" somewhere out there in the universe. Something that they can't truly comprehend with their limited wisdom and understanding, but a Truth nonetheless.
Truth – u really wanna talk about truth don’t you! Well – a quick answer would be “mathsâ€. 1 + 1 = 2. That is a truth.
QUOTE Don't get me wrong, I think it's great when people search for some truth in their lives, but when they take that truth as an absolute and use it as a basis of discrimination and hatred against others (The Inquisition, perhaps?), they totally forget what world it is they're living in. Now you can't forget just how subjective reality is here, and when you keep that in mind, you realize that any "truth" ANYONE may have found in their lives is based off of their own desires. In a world where no one can know ANYTHING for sure, any kind of "truth" that may have been found is based off of no more than a leap of faith on the part of the individual, which in no way makes it "true". What strange and abstract concepts humans come up with!
Lol! Yah, it is weird how we come up with loads of concepts and force them onto people. But essentially, you have to look at where the word truth comes from. It comes from various ideas: honesty, goodness, etc. The truth is supposed to be what is “right†at the time the truth is revealed. So truth is itself an ever-changing concept – it changes according to the evidence that exists. There is no absoluteness when it comes to subjective concepts.
In simple terms – everyone has their own opinion.
(Ahhhh, I like to argue, so please - i am purposely chucking you a can of worms to open - so get cracking!!! ARGH! lol - i know i am flawed in many of my arguments - because i aint perfect!) lol